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Star Wars d6 or FFG Star Wars
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Alastor04
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:14 pm    Post subject: Star Wars d6 or FFG Star Wars Reply with quote

I like Star Wars but I'm having trouble picking which RPG I'd like to play. It seems online that there are two favorites: Star Wars d6 or FFG Star Wars. I am familiar with FFG Star Wars but I have some nit picks about it. Id like to learn more about star wars d6. Here are some concerns I have?

1) It seems rather lethal, how are starting characters supposed to survive? I get when out gunned you should run and dodge but it just looks to me like it is a little more lethal than I'd like.
2) The skill list: To me it seems the skill list is a little too granular also is there a master list? What do you guys use?
3) Lightsaber combat: This power seems complicated and overpowered. Is there a common house rule? Are the rules from first edition too powerful?
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Alastor04
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this skill list too abbreviated?

Dexterity [6] -Acrobatics -Dodge -Lightsabers -Melee Combat -Ranged (Light) -Ranged (Heavy)

Knowledge [10] -Appraise -Bureaucracy -Education -Intimidation -Planetary Systems -Streetwise -Survival -Tactics -Willpower -Xenology

Mechanical [8] -Astrogation -Beast Riding -Communications -Gunnery -Piloting (Planetary) -Piloting (Space) -Sensors -Shields

Perception [8] -Bargain -Command -Deception -Gambling -Investigation -Persuasion -Search -Stealth

Strength [6] -Brawling -Climbing/Jumping -Lifting -Stamina -Swimming -Running

Technical [10] -Armor Crafting/Repair -Computer Programming/Repair -Demolitions -Droid Programming/Repair -First Aid -Medicine (A) -Security -Starship Repair -Vehicle Repair -Weapon Crafting/Repair
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Telsij
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, D6 all the way. Re: your listed concerns, First Edition SWD6 addresses 2 of the 3 primary ones you have, re: the too granular skill list (a frequent complaint about 2nd Edition) and lethality.

The skill list is very much pared down in First Edition, and is already quite similar to what you have listed above. For example, there is only one general starship piloting skill and "heavy weapons" encompasses blaster artillery, vehicle blasters, and larger handheld ranged weapons. Bargain encompasses persuasion, and bureaucracy can be used for diplomatic persuasion as well.

In terms of lethality, in 1E there is no outright kill, only a result of "mortally wounded", and damage must be incurred at 2x or 3x a character's resistance roll in order to have lingering in-game effects: Any hit is a stun, damage must be equal or greater than soak/strength roll to incur a wound, 2x to incapacitate, 3x to mortally wound.

1E ship combat is especially smooth! Speed codes instead of Move scores and all the ranges are relative. The Falcon and TIEs start are at long range and Han wants to make a run for it? The TIEs roll their speed code and piloting, Han rolls his piloting and speed code. Whoever wins closes one range band, from long to medium. +1D to damage at close-range, -1D at long, etc.

The lightsaber combat power is still a point of concern, but there are many house rule variations that do a decent job of addressing the issue without straying too far from the core mechanics.

Personally, I most often play a combination of the two editions, largely 2nd Edition, but with use of a streamlined skill list and the relative range bands, rather than use of specific distances between game elements. The Introductory Adventure Game for SWD6 actually also strikes a nice balance, at least in terms of combining / streamlining skills (one general gunnery skill for planetary craft and spacefaring ones, com-scan as communications and sensors, etc).


Last edited by Telsij on Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:49 am; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Star Wars d6 or FFG Star Wars Reply with quote

Alastor04 wrote:
Star Wars d6 or FFG Star Wars

WEG Star Wars D6 for sure. FFG SW is extremely crunchy and overly complex. D6 is cinematic, and it is extremely flexible and versatile.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WEG D6, absolutely. No contest.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 8:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Star Wars d6 or FFG Star Wars Reply with quote

Alastor04 wrote:
I like Star Wars but I'm having trouble picking which RPG I'd like to play. It seems online that there are two favorites: Star Wars d6 or FFG Star Wars. I am familiar with FFG Star Wars but I have some nit picks about it. Id like to learn more about star wars d6. Here are some concerns I have?


Very cool. Both are good systems, and I hope you find what you are looking for in your home game. I've run the FFG beginner game and have a good number of the supplements, so I know it's a pretty decent system, though D6 is more my own flavor.

Some of the other users have commented on 1st edition, which I can't comment on, but I've got pretty extensive experience with the 2nd edition versions.

Alastor04 wrote:

1) It seems rather lethal, how are starting characters supposed to survive? I get when out gunned you should run and dodge but it just looks to me like it is a little more lethal than I'd like.


Combat is dangerous in 2nd Edition. Is it lethal? Your mileage will vary, but certainly a character can die. I've never had it happen in any of my games yet, but it's a possibility. There are some mitigating factors that keep combat from being unequivocally deadly, and the fact that you can spend character points to boost rolls is one of them. If you missed your dodge, you can add character points to make it a near miss. If you still get hit, you can spend character points to boost your damage resistance. Granted, if you have to spend too many of them, then you pass on the chance for character improvement, but it keeps you alive.

There is also the aspect that you need to ease new characters into it. Lead newbie players into a brawl with a Rancor, and yes, you're probably going to have casualties. But learning how to gauge the players ability and properly challenge them is a bit of a learning curve. Though this is true with a lot of systems.

Alastor04 wrote:

2) The skill list: To me it seems the skill list is a little too granular also is there a master list? What do you guys use?

The skill list you posted earlier looks like an interesting simplified list. I would be interested in seeing how it ran. Other people have simplified the skills, and I think MiniSix has done exactly that for their base system. Though there are a couple of things to keep in mind.

Yes, there are some useless skills like Archaic Starship Piloting and the like, but a broad skill list is not always a bad thing. It allows characters to put more investment into diversifying their skill sets from one another. Having some skill development where another character does not allows for individual characters to shine in the sessions. FFG's game allows for a narrow skill list by having such diverse talent trees. There are no diverse talents or feats, and skills are the only things distinguishing their stats.

Next concern is character points. If you have fewer skills, then they're going to have fewer things to spend character points developing. If you have a narrow selection and a generous reward, then you have the potential to see skill bloat problems sooner.

Neither problem is prohibitive, but they are things to keep in mind as you're condensing skills and rewarding players at the end of the sessions.

Alastor04 wrote:

3) Lightsaber combat: This power seems complicated and overpowered. Is there a common house rule? Are the rules from first edition too powerful?


This is probably the most house-ruled topic I've seen on the forums. It is more complicated than what is otherwise an elegant and cinematic system. Is it overpowerd? It depends on how far you develop your Jedi. It takes them a long time to get competent enough to use the Lightsaber Combat effectively. It takes them a lot longer to outstrip other characters in close quarters combat.

A proper understanding of the multiple action penalties helps keep it from getting out of control, but that may be a separate discussion.

There are a quite a few forum topics on how to challenge competent Jedi without outright killing other characters. As for me, I've found that careful planning has done a better job than houseruling to keep things relatively balanced.
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Alastor04
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've looked over the books some more and I have two more questions:
1) Is Shields really a reaction skill? it seemed to me they did it before combat?
2) Do you enforce the +1 pip improvement between adventures limit?
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alastor04 wrote:
I've looked over the books some more and I have two more questions:
1) Is Shields really a reaction skill? it seemed to me they did it before combat?


Yes. All of your shield dice can be moved into one of four quadrants to block lasers. You can also even them out, adding +1 pips to each quadrant accordingly. There's not always a multiple of 4 pips though. This can be the job of one player, to move the shields to face the enemy.

This comes directly from the OT where they put shields on 'double front' and 'angle the deflector shields.'


Quote:
2) Do you enforce the +1 pip improvement between adventures limit?


Yes. I am very strict with how many character points I give out. I firmly believe that 4D is professional level and that giving out too many CPs quickly unbalanced the game. If your players get too powerful then you can find yourself having trouble making well balanced challenges for them.

Additionally, far down the road, when the players are mowing through stormtroopers like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan through battle druids, they'll have earned that
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've yet to play or run a 1e game (or any other edition, but most of my books are 1e). I'm really keen to do so if and when I can find the time and a group to do it with. However, based on what I've read, some actual play podcasts I've listened to, and on much of the commentary here, I think I've figured out the following.

The WEG Star Wars RPG is pretty different from a lot of other RPGs, especially stuff like AD&D (and especially old school AD&D/D&D/OSRIC) with regard to lethality. In those games, writing character backgrounds is kinda pointless early on, because you can die pretty easily (e.g. save or die rolls, low hitpoints and lethal combat, etc.).

The philosophy described in the 1e books for WEG's game is different. It's supposed to be a more cinematic adventure on a grand scale. As such, the PCs -- heroes -- aren't really supposed to die, unless it's in an appropriately cinematic way. You can have a party wipe as they, oh, I don't know...STEAL THE PLANS FOR THE DEATH STAR and barely manage to get them to the orbiting fleet. But they won't be killed prior to that. Stunned, captured, gravely wounded, sure. But not killed outright.

I expect that one can choose to run a more lethal campaign if one wants to. You could always set up a house rule for how wounds are handled, for example. But it doesn't seem like the system is designed to be particularly lethal. There are consequences, of course. It's not like a campaign should be a waltz in the park. But that doesn't mean characters die.

Actually...I can see an interesting tale where you run one campaign and the party gets captured and sent to an Imperial prison planet, and then that's it. Game over. They aren't dead, but they aren't going anywhere.....until you set up another campaign where the new PCs break the old ones out of prison! Or, you know, whatever suits your fancy.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solo4114 wrote:
The philosophy described in the 1e books for WEG's game is different. It's supposed to be a more cinematic adventure on a grand scale. As such, the PCs -- heroes -- aren't really supposed to die, unless it's in an appropriately cinematic way.
I agree with what you said prior, but I disagree with this last bit. Characters die in 2E if they take 16+ points of damage over their Strength roll to resist. This can easily happen if the PCs don't have a lot of Character Points, if they roll really poorly, or if they are hit for massive damage either through the GM rolling especially well or by taking damage from something like a thermodetonator. Or I should say that this happens, unless the GM fudges die rolls for the adversaries to keep the PCs alive. Occasionally fudging die rolls is, as I read it, within the GM advice in the rules, but it isn't mandatory. And some GMs don't do that. So PCs can certainly die an uncinematic death in WEG Star Wars.

Its worth noting that some DMs fudge die rolls which leads to D&D characters only dying in special circumstances. It's also worth noting that one difference between D&D and WEG Star Wars is that Star Wars is not intended to be a zero to hero style of play like old style D&D. WEG characters don't increase hit points as they gain experience and as a result they are more robust than a 1st level D&D character and they begin play with good, sometimes very good, skill levels. Once D&D characters get above a certain level, they (like WEG characters) tend not to die and even if D&D characters do die many campaigns allow resurrections and such to make even death only a temporary set back for a PC.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alastor04 wrote:
I've looked over the books some more and I have two more questions:
1) Is Shields really a reaction skill? it seemed to me they did it before combat?

The skill is used to change the arrangement of the shield die code during combat. That is to say, you can put all your shields up front when you are moving in head-to-head with a tie fighter, but once the vectors of the attacks change, you'll want to redistribute your protection.

Alastor04 wrote:

2) Do you enforce the +1 pip improvement between adventures limit?

During the first several adventures this will seem like a silly cap. Once you're a way into an extended campaign you'll be glad for this limit. If you let your beginning characters develop too quickly, you'll have difficulty challenging them properly later.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Alastor04 wrote:

2) Do you enforce the +1 pip improvement between adventures limit?

During the first several adventures this will seem like a silly cap. Once you're a way into an extended campaign you'll be glad for this limit. If you let your beginning characters develop too quickly, you'll have difficulty challenging them properly later.
I completely agree. My experience is that unless CPs are handed out liberally, characters will sometimes struggle to increase +1 pip in one skill after every adventure. Obviously this will vary. If the player focuses on improving skills that are in the 2D or 3D range its a lot cheaper to improve their skills than if they focus on improving skills that are already at 5D+.
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Solo4114 wrote:
The philosophy described in the 1e books for WEG's game is different. It's supposed to be a more cinematic adventure on a grand scale. As such, the PCs -- heroes -- aren't really supposed to die, unless it's in an appropriately cinematic way.
I agree with what you said prior, but I disagree with this last bit. Characters die in 2E if they take 16+ points of damage over their Strength roll to resist.


That may be so. I'm talking about what's written in the 1e books, however. I can't speak to 2e, since I haven't really read through my 2e handbook.

Quote:
This can easily happen if the PCs don't have a lot of Character Points, if they roll really poorly, or if they are hit for massive damage either through the GM rolling especially well or by taking damage from something like a thermodetonator. Or I should say that this happens, unless the GM fudges die rolls for the adversaries to keep the PCs alive. Occasionally fudging die rolls is, as I read it, within the GM advice in the rules, but it isn't mandatory. And some GMs don't do that. So PCs can certainly die an uncinematic death in WEG Star Wars.


Ultimately, I think it's up to the GM to decide what kind of game they want to run. Lethal to Gygaxian proportions? Whedonesque? "Cinematic" with only "Ugh! Argh!....go on without me!" deaths at cinematic moments? Some of it probably also depends on the players, too, and the GM's sense of them. If the GM gets the sense that the players would abandon the game if it were too lethal, he or she may dial back the lethality a bit. Or if the GM thinks the players will get bored wearing "hero shields," he or she may let PCs die more easily.

Quote:
Its worth noting that some DMs fudge die rolls which leads to D&D characters only dying in special circumstances. It's also worth noting that one difference between D&D and WEG Star Wars is that Star Wars is not intended to be a zero to hero style of play like old style D&D. WEG characters don't increase hit points as they gain experience and as a result they are more robust than a 1st level D&D character and they begin play with good, sometimes very good, skill levels. Once D&D characters get above a certain level, they (like WEG characters) tend not to die and even if D&D characters do die many campaigns allow resurrections and such to make even death only a temporary set back for a PC.


Of course, and it also depends on which edition of D&D you're talking about. But again, it's ultimately up to the GM/DM to decide how to run their own game. Regardless of what it says in WEG's 1e books, I think it's entirely possible to run a more lethal game, and that may be a good idea, depending on the group you're playing with. But as I read it, it's not really designed to be as "Oh well. That's what the dice said. You're dead" as old school AD&D/D&D is.

That's neither a good thing nor a bad thing. Just a general vibe I get from reading the books.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a lethal system, but it's also a fair system. It's just as lethal for your enemy as it is for you. You and your players will start to use that to their advantage.

I don't shield my experienced players from the dice. They know the risks and choose to chance the tides of fate. That being said, I also don't set out to kill my players. Usually they know to look for intel, to use tactics to come up with plans and try and talk their way out of fights they don't think they can win.

Just like Han Solo intimidating a bunch of stormtroopers on the Death Star by charging them, they know that if the stormtroopers figure out what's going on, then Han and Chewie better start running. And maybe burn a few CPs on dodge...

It's different with new players who are learning the system, or young kids.

Yes, SW WEG is a cinematic system. I usually describe it to new players as group storytelling with rules. The system lends itself to roleplaying as much as combat. It is incredibly quick to learn, especially character creation. There are some excellent guides on this website.

D&D did focus on combat, the initial system coming from a medieval miniature wargame called Chainmail. Newer versions facilitate roleplaying better, especially 3E and the creation of the D20 system. I always saw that as a reaction to the simplicity of the D6 system, but your mileage may vary.

SW FFG is even more of a cinematic system. Damage isn't rolled, it's calculated before hand. Everyone at the table is involved in every roll. I enjoyed it the one time I played, but I prefer WEG.

Good luck choosing your game!
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yomama360
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have played FFG, but prefer D6. There was a lot of stuff I liked about the FFG system, but combat was taking forever because you had to compare and eliminate symbols with those dice. The system is great for a game with occasional skill rolls, but heavy battles took forever to resolve.

We actually incorporated a lot of stuff from FFG. We do a hit point system (also found in D6 Space) and strain that everyone seems to understand and enjoy better than the wound system. Simplified the skill list. And we just ruled that shields cover the entire ship for simplicity. But a dedicated crewmember can use their shield skill to increase shields against specific attacks (up to maximum double the shield code).
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