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Perception based 'soaking"..
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:55 pm    Post subject: Perception based 'soaking".. Reply with quote

Other than force powers, i've yet to find an instance in where someone does NOT USE strength (or stamina which is based on strength) to soak something, from Drugs, to diseases, to mind control devices.. Other than resisting opposed skills (con vs con, intimidate vs willpower etc), there is NOTHING that uses Per as a resistance, that is NOT force related...

But as we see in RL, someone get's hit by teargas, whether they are the 'barely 100lb soaking wet, 5ft 2 stick figure gal, or the 300lb ex linebacker, that tear gas will affect BOTH in a "PHYSICALLY similar manner", but depending on their wits and such (Perception!!) depends on how long one is affected..
Same with sonic weaponry...

So why is it no tech in SW goes against Per instead of Str??

you would think that with the large # of high strength aliens out there, the empire at least, would have developed SOME weaponry that could attack them, and NOT go against their high Str, by hitting their weak Per...
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is resisting teargas due to your wits "Soaking with Perception" or is it "Making a Knowledge check to know how to mitigate the effects of tear gas"? Because I'd see it as the other. I don't see how your charisma and perspicacity are going to protect you from a chemical irritant in your eyes... knowing that you can reduce the effects by holding a wet towel over your mouth and eyes will, effectively, make it easier for your Strength or Stamina roll to resist the damage.

Similarly, with sonic weaponry. How does having better awareness protect you from a sonic blast that has hit you? Strength, with its association with Stamina, sure.

When you posit a tech that resists with Perception, you're assuming that a LOWER perception increases your vulnerability to it. What is that going to look like? How does a lower perception increase your vulnerability to sonic weapons? How does a lower perception make it more likely that you'll feel a chemical irritant? The only place I could see a Perception resistance would be something like Illusions... but, in SW, those are likely to rely on the force.

I'm simply not seeing a rationale, there. Nothing uses Technical as a resistance... should we figure something out that does? Nothing uses Mechanical as a resistance.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean, if we're really putting a fine point on it, I don't see how being able to bench press 300lbs really protects you from being run through with a rapier any better than if you were the 100lb cheerleader. How does your raw strength protect you from being shot?

I've spent the last hour going over internet articles, some online government statistics, and even a few medical journals I can search through, and I haven't found any reference to factors other than wound location, amount of bleeding, patient condition upon arriving at an emergency medical facility, and secondary infections as survivability factors. Granted, it seems intuitive that -- all other things being equal -- an active 23 year old would stand a better chance than his 93 year old grandmother. But there's a limit to what intuition can tell us.

I'd be open to seeing statistics of how a more muscular person is better able to withstand something like a stabbing or a shooting than someone less muscular.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
I mean, if we're really putting a fine point on it, I don't see how being able to bench press 300lbs really protects you from being run through with a rapier any better than if you were the 100lb cheerleader. How does your raw strength protect you from being shot?


But the Strength attribute also includes a number of other things... including resistance to pain and exhaustion, via Stamina.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, and these are factors that come into play when characters respond to damage in some instances. Though my point is that the attribute as a whole is really an abstraction in terms of a body's resistance to damage. Your attribute determines whether you're naturally prone to being a good swimmer, a heavy lifter, or having a lot of stamina. But these things are of little consequence when you've been stabbed.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:

I'm simply not seeing a rationale, there. Nothing uses Technical as a resistance... should we figure something out that does? Nothing uses Mechanical as a resistance.


Per and Str though are Physical skills.. That;s why i feel there's a need here for something other than Str to be used for resistance, especally when NOT EVERY Baddie is going to be walking around with force powers..
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its pretty easy to make the connection between "strength" and damage resistance. The damage roll is also an abstraction and the attribute represents the physical baseline of the individual (to include the overall condition of his physiology--metabolism, general health, the body's ability to function in spite of being compromised, etc).

I also see what garhkal is getting at. I can say, without a doubt, that something like tear gas is absolutely mitigated by a person's mental fortitude and processing capability.

Flash bangs, pepper spray, etc are all overcome by either willpower or mental processing power. Having the ability to think through the pain/fear/panic is what makes someone able to mitigate the effects.

Police, for example, must be sprayed with pepper spray as part of their training in order to be able to function in the event they contaminate themselves during deployment. They are trained to "gather their wits" and "fight through" the effects regardless of the fact that it is affacting them. The sheer pain, though, is often to much for an unprepared person to deal with, and they usually freak out and "lose their wits" because of the intensity of the experience.


Last edited by Naaman on Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going off of personal experience, I would say that garhkal is absolutely right about perception (or possibly willpower) being a valid means by which to resist attacks that rely on sensory overload (such as a flash bang or pepper spray), and even attacks that trigger a non-damaging physiological effect such as tear gas.

IMO, a higher perception IS a defense against such attacks.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm on the same page. I went looking through all the WEG gear and grenades, and I couldn't believe that there wasn't a flashbang that affected Perception. The idea of keeping your wits about you when getting sensory overload makes sense to me
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glad people are starting to come around...

So, doing a quick search, i find this i have posted in the past on how I see flash bangs..

Quote:
I have often had these 'alternate stunning' weapons used by city swats and local planetary guards. Unlike normal grenades, Flash bangs get resisted by Perception, NOT strength. In the past i have usually had them set at a specific 'damage' value that someone rolls their Per against, and the lower they roll, the more 'debilitated' they are from blinding and disorientation Normal Flash bangs are a 20 base value, with the resultant disorientation being valued at
0-3 less - minus 1d for 1 round to all actions
4-7 less, -2d for 1d rounds
8-12 less, -3d for 2d rounds
13-16 less, -4d for 1 minute
17 or more, -4d for 1d minutes.

There is a heavier flash bang with a flat 25 for its disorientation value, and a lesser one set at 15.

Last Gencon someone suggested rather than having it be a flat value, have it a Die value (like all other grenades/explosives etc), and allow for things like sonic dampeners/flash suppressor goggles to give bonuses much like armor do..

What say you all on that?
Should they go to a die damage value or stay as is?
What would be a good "armor" bonus those items should grant to the Per roll?


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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say do it whichever way makes sense to you. The level of detail you target should reflect the importance of such devices in your game (and how often they are used).

Having said that, I do prefer a damage die code conceptually instead of a flat difficulty.

It adds a bit more suspense to the encounter.

Noise cancelling ear protection is a thing in real life. Heck: we used it in Iraq. You can more or less hear normally, but loud noises are dampened. A cruder ear plug could also do the job at the cost of losing the finer details of perceived sounds.

Eye protection makes sense too, especially if built into the helmet (look into space marine power armor helmets for some ideas).

As for the level of protection offered, I'd say that's GM's call based on how important those things are to the adventure or campaign.


Last edited by Naaman on Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And we see sound dampning gear in one of those equipment books..

So far i've rarely actually used this version of flash bangs.. Mostly with planetary LE when they are breaking up crime gang hideouts (or rebel cells)..
So for those times i actually did go with a D value.. 6d out to 3m, 4d to 7m, 2d to 10m..
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
I'm on the same page. I went looking through all the WEG gear and grenades, and I couldn't believe that there wasn't a flashbang that affected Perception. The idea of keeping your wits about you when getting sensory overload makes sense to me
There are weapons that affect Perception. But they are resisted with STR or Stamina.

If you want something other than STR or Stamina for resistance, Willpower makes more sense to me.

1. Willpower is a closer match to "mental fortitude" than is Perception.

2. Willpower is a skill that can be trained so Special Forces troops could improve their ability to resist flash bangs.

3. Lando Calrissian being more resistant to stun grenades than every Spec Forces NPC ever as well Han Solo solely because Lando has a 4D Perception (and the others don't) seems off to me.

4. And finally, as far as I'm concerned using Perception as a means of resisting weapon attacks is a solution in search of a problem.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've seen this featured in another game; Warhammer 40,000 has a Photon Grenade that creates a blinding (literally) flash of light. Characters wearing protective goggles (or inside a building) got a saving throw based on the effectiveness of their goggles; everyone else was blinded for the rest of the game, with a 50% chance of being blinded permanently.

I've considered writing up stats for them in the past, as part of the Warhammer Tech thread I had going, but the idea of an inverted damage roll (i.e. the targeted character rolling their Perception hoping to get less than the Damage roll to avoid the effects) seemed a little off to me. Of course, there's no reason it couldn't work...
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Per and Str though are Physical skills.
I don't see Perception as solely a physical attribute. It’s a combination of physical senses (eyesight, hearing, smell, etc.) as well as alertness and awareness which are mental components. Similarly Mechanical, while it has mental components, has a strong physical component based on reflexes and hand-eye coordination. So if the argument is that Perception should be used to resist certain weapon attacks because it is a physical attribute, then the same argument implies that Mechanical should also be used to resist certain other weapon attacks. Which frankly seems kind of odd.
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