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Perception based 'soaking"..
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 28, 2017 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
I mean, if we're really putting a fine point on it, I don't see how being able to bench press 300lbs really protects you from being run through with a rapier any better than if you were the 100lb cheerleader. How does your raw strength protect you from being shot?.


Well, on that note...

That same thinking prompted me to give my players a flat 2D to soak being shot by blasters. (Armor dice can be added of course).

Small species get 1D. Larger get 3D...or even 4D.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That wasn't quite my point. I was more going for the idea that we accept an abstraction for one attribute being a soak, and therefore it shouldn't be too much of a stretch for us to accept Perception as a different kind of abstraction.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
cheshire wrote:
I'm on the same page. I went looking through all the WEG gear and grenades, and I couldn't believe that there wasn't a flashbang that affected Perception. The idea of keeping your wits about you when getting sensory overload makes sense to me
There are weapons that affect Perception. But they are resisted with STR or Stamina.

If you want something other than STR or Stamina for resistance, Willpower makes more sense to me.
.

I could see willpower as well.. Though willpower is also easier to improve than Perception is..
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want training to allow soldiers (or whomever) a better chance to resist or handle the effects than you need to use a skill. On the other hand, if the desire is to have some weapon that the PCs can't really resist its better not to allow a resistance roll in the first place. The effect automatically happens...or if you want a bit of variation roll 1D6; 1=effect doubled, 2-4=effect as normal, 5=effect halved, 6=no effect.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:


I could see willpower as well.. Though willpower is also easier to improve than Perception is..


Willpower does make sense. And it's also an opportunity to get players to broaden the character's skill base.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that willpower COULD be appropriate; however, if we look at the description of the search skill, it could also be appropriate depending on what specific effect we are dealing with.

Conceptually (putting aside the actual names of the skills for a moment), search makes more sense than willpower for something like a flashbang: the grenade is designed to disorient the targets, but a target that has a high degree of processing power (i.e. a high "perception" attribute accounts for this partially) should be able to withstand or overcome the effects by mentally sorting out what is going on and deliberately filtering out the over stimulation.

I do see this as a function of willpower, as well, but I honestly feel like perception/search and willpower sort of cover different aspects of the overall characteristics that are necessary to overcome the sensory overload.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you use Perception you are essentially saying that people can't really improve their ability to manage sensory overload. If you use willpower or search then they you are saying that people can improve their ability to ignore or handle sensory overload such as a flashbang via training or experience.

Note that this is similar to the choice of whether one uses Strength or stamina to resist or handle damage. (Strength and Perception are difficult and expensive to improve, while stamina, search, and willpower, like all skills, are fairly easy to improve.)


Last edited by Bren on Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Per and Str though are Physical skills.
I don't see Perception as solely a physical attribute. It’s a combination of physical senses (eyesight, hearing, smell, etc.) as well as alertness and awareness which are mental components. Similarly Mechanical, while it has mental components, has a strong physical component based on reflexes and hand-eye coordination. So if the argument is that Perception should be used to resist certain weapon attacks because it is a physical attribute, then the same argument implies that Mechanical should also be used to resist certain other weapon attacks. Which frankly seems kind of odd.


Though, given that it covers reaction skills, both Mechanical and Dexterity ARE used to resist damage... but by avoiding it, rather than overcoming it.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In other words, Bren, if you're looking for a skill-based answer, search may work instead of willpower if you prefer to keep everything perception-based.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thought: d6 Space did not use straight strength to resist damage, but something closer to 1 pip per die of strength (buried under a baby right now).

My house rule changes that to 1 pip per die of Stamina. A similar rule might be applied to Knowledge/Willpower for mord mental attacks, with Perception being used for the reaction skills.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Though, given that it covers reaction skills, both Mechanical and Dexterity ARE used to resist damage... but by avoiding it, rather than overcoming it.
That's not quite correct. Skills like Dodge or Starship Piloting are used for avoidance but the attribute itself is never used. And as you yourself noted, those are to avoid being hit, not to resist the damage. Unless you are covering your eyes and ears you don't avoid being hit by a flashbang you try to continue to act despite being partly blinded and deafened.

Naaman wrote:
In other words, Bren, if you're looking for a skill-based answer, search may work instead of willpower if you prefer to keep everything perception-based.
I'm not and I don't, but if I was and I did, then yeah.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, Search could be used instead of willpower. How's about for ever D your Search is above PER, you gain +1 pip to your soak.. So if your Per is 3D, and you have an 8d+1 search that gives you +5 to your soak roll to resist flashbangs..
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Splits the difference between attribute vs skill resistance.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
If you want training to allow soldiers (or whomever) a better chance to resist or handle the effects than you need to use a skill. On the other hand, if the desire is to have some weapon that the PCs can't really resist its better not to allow a resistance roll in the first place. The effect automatically happens...or if you want a bit of variation roll 1D6; 1=effect doubled, 2-4=effect as normal, 5=effect halved, 6=no effect.


garhkal wrote:
True, Search could be used instead of willpower. How's about for ever D your Search is above PER, you gain +1 pip to your soak.. So if your Per is 3D, and you have an 8d+1 search that gives you +5 to your soak roll to resist flashbangs..


After thinking about this a bit longer, I've changed my mind. Using a skill to "resist" the effects doesn't work for me because the purpose of the attack is to reduce the targets ability to use skills. In other words, a person who has been "hit" by a flash bang would be "resisting" it with a skill that is supposed to be compromised (search, for example). A high search skill is already a means to mitigate the effects: the higher skill still has more left over when the penalty is applied.

As a GM in this situation, I would allow a character to make "search" checks at a penalty after being "hit" by a flash bang grenade (or the like). In this case, the higher the search skill, the less effective the attack.

HOWEVER, the initial effect, in my opinion, should be resisted by an attribute, rather than a skill. If the attribute roll is successful, then the attack would have no effect whatsoever.

So, I would run it like this:

1: flash bang goes off, all affected characters roll perception (for example)

2: those who fail their perception roll immediately suffer the appropriate effects, but may make a willpower or search check (depending on GM's preference and the kind of stimulus experienced) to reduce the effect.

3: the effects continue until whatever chart I created dictates they have expired.

In this case, I would reason that a flash bang should be sufficiently intense to have at least a 51% chance of disorienting a character with a 4D perception attribute (so it should be nearly impossible for a baseline human or similar to ever "ignore" the effects of something like a flash bang). The intent is that characters should have to expend CPs to have a strong likelihood of completely ignoring the effects (though, it's possible that the damage roll, even if it is a lot of dice, could still be lower than the perception roll of a lower die code, which is why I said 51%). After the effects set in, then the training can kick in and help to mitigate the effects.

A character with a high perception who is under the effects of a force point should reasonably be able to roll high enough to "ignore" the effects, in my opinion.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my game Willpower is a Perception skill, so I could see Willpower for this.
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