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Moving Skills Around
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some convincing arguments there especially on the con vs investigation/search angle..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a similar note, something I've been considering is, rather than having Firearms and Blasters broken up into separate skills, breaking them up by usage instead. What I mean is, as opposed to having a Blaster and a Firearms skill, group it instead into Pistols and Rifles (and others, as needed, like a Heavy Weapons skill).

I'm not committed to this one, but I do think there is something to the idea that a Firearm pistol has more in common (insofar as how it is used) with a Blaster Pistol than it does with a Firearm rifle...

Anyway, based on what's been covered so far...
    -Moved Intimidation to Perception, but left Willpower in Knowledge. The dividing line for me is whether the skill involves internal Knowledge (things a character knows about themselves or) or external Perception (what a character perceives about others and the world in general). In that sense, Willpower is right where it belongs.

    -Astrogation works well as a Knowledge skill, but I think Planetary Systems is good enough for real-space and planetary navigation.

    -I've combined Dodge and Running into a single skill called Agility, per what we discussed here. I won't rehash the arguments, but as far as g's Distance Running idea, I think Stamina adequately covers this.

    -Moved Brawling Combat to Dexterity (Damage is still Strength-based).

    -Sensors and Communications combined as Com-Scan under Mech.

    -Discernment as an anti-Con, although I would like to use Whill's idea for replacing Con with Deception (as discussed in the link) once the details get hammered out.

    -Beast Riding to Beast Handling in Perception makes sense.

    -First Aid to Knowledge, but if you look at WEG's later works, there are many Advanced Skills with prerequisites selected from multiple attributes (see Hideouts & Strongholds, specifically the Engineering skills). IMO, Advanced Skills should not be classified under attributes at all, and kept on a list separate from the six main attributes.

    -Vehicle Blasters belongs in Mechanical, IMO, but I think Blaster Artillery (or better yet, just Artillery) should remain under Dexterity.

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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO artillery is a cerebral skill more than a kinetic one.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
IMO artillery is a cerebral skill more than a kinetic one.

Most skills have some cerebral aspect to them. Artillery is covered by a Mechanical skill in my game.

CRMcNeill wrote:
-Vehicle Blasters belongs in Mechanical, IMO...

-Sensors and Communications combined as Com-Scan under Mech...

-Moved Intimidation to Perception...

-Beast Riding to Beast Handling in Perception makes sense...

-First Aid to Knowledge...

I concur with all of these plus more...

CRMcNeill wrote:
First Aid to Knowledge, but if you look at WEG's later works, there are many Advanced Skills with prerequisites selected from multiple attributes (see Hideouts & Strongholds, specifically the Engineering skills).

Just to be clear, you weren't making First Aid an advanced skill, right? Bringing advanced skills up with First Aid was a reference to Medicine which is advanced so First Aid moving to Knowledge has no impact on Medicine, right?

CRMcNeill wrote:
IMO, Advanced Skills should not be classified under attributes at all, and kept on a list separate from the six main attributes.

I completely agree. Game mechanically, Advanced Skills are not built on any attribute and start at 1D. My advanced skills can have prerequisites from skills under multiple attributes, and even attribute prerequisites in some cases. I list my Advanced Skills separately from the attribute skills.

CRMcNeill wrote:
-Discernment as an anti-Con, although I would like to use Whill's idea for replacing Con with Deception (as discussed in the link) once the details get hammered out.

I'm using Discernment. Deception is mostly just a name change. I think in effect Con is already used more generally, so I just thought the name of the skill should reflect that. But it probably could be rewritten to better reflect the general aspect.

CRMcNeill wrote:
-I've combined Dodge and Running into a single skill called Agility, per what we discussed here. I won't rehash the arguments, but as far as g's Distance Running idea, I think Stamina adequately covers this.

I forgot to mention that I adopted a form of your Agility too. It's really not a complex or in depth argument for it. In Running you dodge obstacles while moving and maintain your balance, and to Dodge you must move while dodging things that are flying at you. They are very similar already, and then when you consider that fact that EVERY SINGLE other movement or vehicle operation skill uses the same skill to navigate obstacles as it does to evade, combining Running with Dodge is a no-brainer. I feel they kinda blew it when they created the Running skill for 2e. And I agree that Stamina fine as is for the endurance aspect of long distance running, etc.

CRMcNeill wrote:
-Astrogation works well as a Knowledge skill, but I think Planetary Systems is good enough for real-space and planetary navigation.

In my game, I took a page from D6 Space and renamed Planetary Systems as Astrography because I wanted it to cover everything it already does but also include interstellar phenomena like nebulas and stuff like that that are not a part of a planetary system. It's still a knowledge skill. Astrogation is an Advanced skill in my game with Astrography (in Kno) and Computers (in Tec) as prerequisites.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Most skills have some cerebral aspect to them. Artillery is covered by a Mechanical skill in my game.

In fact, I think there should be two different Artillery skills, one for heavy weapons like howitzers and/or rocket launchers (in Mechanical), and another for crew-served weapons like the E-WEB (in Dexterity). The Dexterity skills is warranted because there is still a dependence on manual dexterity and hand-eye coordination when firing such weapons, but there is also the cooperative aspect of requiring more than one person to do it successfully.

Quote:
Just to be clear, you weren't making First Aid an advanced skill, right? Bringing advanced skills up with First Aid was a reference to Medicine which is advanced so First Aid moving to Knowledge has no impact on Medicine, right?

Correct. My main point was that Medicine did not belong in either Technical or Knowledge on account of being an Advanced skill. I concur with keeping First Aid as a regular skill.

Quote:
In my game, I took a page from D6 Space and renamed Planetary Systems as Astrography because I wanted it to cover everything it already does but also include interstellar phenomena like nebulas and stuff like that that are not a part of a planetary system. It's still a knowledge skill. Astrogation is an Advanced skill in my game with Astrography (in Kno) and Computers (in Tec) as prerequisites.

My only problem there is that Astrography would seem to preclude planetary navigation, by definition...
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
On a similar note, something I've been considering is, rather than having Firearms and Blasters broken up into separate skills, breaking them up by usage instead. What I mean is, as opposed to having a Blaster and a Firearms skill, group it instead into Pistols and Rifles (and others, as needed, like a Heavy Weapons skill).


For me, while they are SHOT the same (point and pull trigger) there's a big difference between firearms/blasters. Just like with missile weapons or archaic weaponry (blunderbusses/matchlocks..)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But are the basics of aiming a pistol accurately really going to be that different when firing a blaster pistol or slug thrower?
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
But are the basics of aiming a pistol accurately really going to be that different when firing a blaster pistol or slug thrower?
Well they are different if I use two different skills and they aren't very different if I don't.

Since blasters look like they have recoil one might argue that firing a blaster (unlike a beam weapon where there is no recoil) is a lot like firing a Colt M1911A1. But the details of weapon care and maintenance would seem very unlike.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say blaster and firearms can be governed by the same skill. When we consider the fundamentals of marksmanship, we realize that hitting a target (for basic shooting at combat/skirmish distances) has little or nothing to do with the gun, and everything to do with the shooter (there is no difference in hitting a target with a 19th century revolver vs a 21st century Glock, for example). So since blasters are clearly an evolution of firearms (hence the shape and ergonomics of them) I see no problem using them with the same skill. Just my $0.02.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As for the artillery thing, I suppose if we are throwing the EWHB in with the big (or even little) launchers, then there could be an element of dexterity to it... but merely being a crew served weapon, IMO, isnt enough to categorize a weapon as artillery. Strictly speaking, a sniper rifle is a crew served weapon, for example (as are light machine guns, while we're at it).
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
But are the basics of aiming a pistol accurately really going to be that different when firing a blaster pistol or slug thrower?


Yes, cause a firearm has recoil, windage/distance to worry about (due to bullets dropping where blasters don't).
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to disagree here. Unless you are shooting at the absolute limits of the firearm's range, then windage and bullet drop are nearly irrelevant.

For example, without changing the point of aim on a 5.56 rifle (with a typical 50m zero), you can get hits on a torso from 0 to 300 meters (yes, the points of impact will vary slightly).

If we are getting into more advanced shooting, this would make a difference. For example, the mechanical offset of a scope or fixed sights would always affect a blaster, whereas a firearm can be set up so that the point of aim and point of impact is the same at certain distance. In other words, for precision shooting, the blaster shooter would always, without exception, need to hold a few inches higher than his desired point of impact, whereas a firearm needs to have the ballistics taken into account. But for typical SW shooting (battle of Hoth, battle of Endor, escape from the Death Star, etc.), we don't need to take those things into consideration (everyone is shooting from the hip, anyway).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
Since blasters look like they have recoil one might argue that firing a blaster (unlike a beam weapon where there is no recoil) is a lot like firing a Colt M1911A1.

I've got a 1911, and while I don't have extensive experience with it, I have noticed that the recoil tends to affect rate of fire more than the basic mechanics of firing a single shot (the kick is definitely there, and it makes it a little more difficult to recenter your sights before firing the next round than would a pistol of lighter caliber).

Quote:
But the details of weapon care and maintenance would seem very unlike.

I concur, and I'm not suggesting combining Blaster Repair with Firearm Repair. I'm just saying that the physics of hand-eye coordination and firing the weapon itself are arguably too similar to warrant different skill sets.

I take a similar stance on Lightsaber; it's not different enough from the basic mechanics of wielding a sword to warrant being distinct from Melee Combat, and per the 2R&E rules (since a character can have a Specialization without having the main skill), the same effect could be achieved by requiring Jedi to specialize in Melee Combat: Lightsaber and Melee Parry: Lightsaber.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I tend to disagree here. Unless you are shooting at the absolute limits of the firearm's range, then windage and bullet drop are nearly irrelevant.

That was my thinking, as well.

Maybe we could justify needing two separate skills by saying that you need the Firearms skill to adjust to the greater recoil, thus explaining why both weapons use similar ranges and fire rates, in spite of a slugthrower's greater recoil.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 12:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
In my game, I took a page from D6 Space and renamed Planetary Systems as Astrography because I wanted it to cover everything it already does but also include interstellar phenomena like nebulas and stuff like that that are not a part of a planetary system. It's still a knowledge skill. Astrogation is an Advanced skill in my game with Astrography (in Kno) and Computers (in Tec) as prerequisites.

My only problem there is that Astrography would seem to preclude planetary navigation, by definition...

I'm not sure I follow. The D6 Space skill covers everything Planetary Systems does, but "planetary systems" seems to preclude interstellar space phenomena (outside of planetary systems). Astrography here is not just referring to stars or we'd be right back in the same boat. Here it has a very general space meaning as general knowledge of the galaxy. The geographical type of knowledge for planets and systems, plus interstellar knowledge like "no one has ever made it through that nebula" and "the radiation from the all the black holes in that sector won't let us investigate for too long".

CRMcNeill wrote:
I take a similar stance on Lightsaber; it's not different enough from the basic mechanics of wielding a sword to warrant being distinct from Melee Combat, and per the 2R&E rules (since a character can have a Specialization without having the main skill), the same effect could be achieved by requiring Jedi to specialize in Melee Combat: Lightsaber and Melee Parry: Lightsaber.

Or Lightsaber can be an advanced skill that adds to Melee Combat. If you don't have the skill, you can use Melee Combat to fight with it but there is that danger of hurting yourself if you roll poorly as in RAW. The advanced skill just adds to Melee Combat, and just having the advanced skill lessens or eliminates that danger of hurting yourself.
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