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Jedi Stats
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Soniv
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
I know of 2 gms who actually have the BASE cost with teacher be double, and quadrouple without.

Well, I would argue this if they wanted to play Force skills as advanced. Advanced skills add to a base skill that uses it, right? So why not have their Sense automatically add to their search rolls? Or Control add to damage resistance, or Alter to add to damage?

And I'm not saying with the use of a force power, either, I mean base addition, like Medicine does with First Aid, or Engineering does to repair skills. That should probably make them think twice about doubling the regular cost, or at least make Jedi worth a bit more in a fight. Double without a teacher, I approve of. The Force works in mysterious ways, and would be difficult to learn without a teacher for guidance, both in time and effort(CP). However, doubling the base cost just seems unreasonable without some other benefit.
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entropy
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:18 am    Post subject: multiple-action penalties to damage dice Reply with quote

Quote:
In the above example, the jedi would be looking at a grand total of a -4D penalty to all of his actions in that one round AND getting attacked a minimum of 5 times at point blank range. He would only be doing 6D damage with his lightsaber (5D lightsaber skill + 5D control -4D multiple action penalty)... Only 1D more than a blaster rifle. And if the jedi attempts to block and reflect blaster fire... there's two more actions (the parry and the bolt reflection).


Vanion, are you saying you apply multiple action penalties to ability-based damage rolls? I think if you reduced the lightsaber damage from 10D to 6D in your example, you would have to reduce a Wookie's brawling damage or a Coynite's sword damage for multiple actions, as those are strength-based damages. I'm not entirely opposed to this, since I always thought D6 was weighted heavily to favor melee combat characters, but I don't think there are a lot of GMs doing this.

Is there a rule in the books somewhere that clears this up?
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Gry Sarth
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I deal with it the same way Vanion does. Multiple action penalties reduce the lightsaber damage. I certainly don't reduce a normal browling or melee damage because of multiple action penalties, but that's a different thing. You character's strength is always the same, unless he's injured, so the damage shouldn't change. Now, the extra damage a saber does is due to the concentration of the jedi, focusing the force to enhance the saber's power, and that's something that takes concentration. So the more things you do in a round, the less you'll be able to concentrate to give your sabre that extra punch.
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Endwyn
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What it comes down to is the force skill is what is being penilized and causing the damage to get reduced. There's a good example in R&E under the power.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MAPS don't reduce the lightsabers damage, but the bonus coming from control.
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Lord Aramus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thats the way I have always played it. MAPS apply to control dice on damage just as they do on an action roll.
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Vanion
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I think of the D6 Jedi much like a D&D Spellcaster. At low levels you're pretty much a hinderance to the group, but at high levels you kick @&&! One of the players in my group is playing a Rebellion era Failed Jedi. Because he only starts out with two force powers and he has no master, he's having trouble keeping up with the other PCs. He's pretty much decided to stop dropping CPs in his two force skills and focus on his regular Dex-based lightsaber skill.

**Keep in mind that a lightsaber is basically as difficult to use as a vibroaxe, and does less 'unmodified' damage when the vibroaxe is in the hands of a character with 4 or 5D strength.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed.

Heck i have seen several characters who took the LS skill (dex) but are not even Force sensitive, let alone jedi.

Yes, they do realise they cannot parry bolts, but still the intimidation value and the shear usefulness of them is not overlooked.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I concur, MAPs do decrease the available control dice to put into Lightsaber damage, as the jedi is distracted. For a Jedi focus and control are everything.

I have also noticed, that any time a discussion comes up involving a Jedi and his game balance, some one breaks out the same dead horse of lightsaber combat and proceeds to flog it. Every time, though, people miss several obvious points which I have pointed out numerous times.

• A Jedi's lightsaber combat skill is not the do all, end all, definition of a Jedi, and is really only relevant if you are running a combat heavy campaign. Most of the useful Jedi powers outside lightsaber combat have really high target numbers, and only become achievable in the 4D range.
• A Jedi's lightsaber skill is really only useful if the Jedi can reach close combat with it, which is not always the case. If all a Jedi has is his lightsaber, and the enemy is smart enough to maintain range, then the Jedi will eventually be toast.
• All such examples usually make statements or assumptions that the Jedi is doing nothing but dumping skill points into his force powers and lightsaber. Any character who focuses on just one skill can become just as unbalanced. It costs a Jedi more to become as profficient with lightsaber combat as he needs to increse 3 seperate abilities, two of which are usually double cost...meanwhile Schlubba Fette can specialize in Heavy Blaster (reducing the cost by half) and just dump every CP in one skill until there is no possible way the Jedi could parry!
• And lastlye...with this dead horse...it is always mentioned the Jedi with 5 or 6D in force skill would call 5 actions at blah blah blah dice doing whopping buttload damge... How? After MAPs a 5D Control 5D sense jedi with 5 actions would have 0D and be unable to raise or keep up his lightsaber combat, thus no adding sense to lightsaber, no adding control to damage... While a 6D Control 6D Sense would have 1D left, so how does he make that moderate control difficulty to raise the power?

Come on people, Jedi are more than walking glowsticks. If your gonna complain about imbalance and keep using the same argument to support it, go read the rules that support that argument before breaking it out please?
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Vanion
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amen!!!

Well said, KageRyu! People tend to focus on the combat abilities of characters too much. They see the LC skill and think that the Jedi are uberpowerful because of the "POTENTIAL" damage that it could deal... often failing to see the details and the MAPs involved to pull it off.
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TarlSS
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. The Jedi are overpowered because they can easily match the combat capabilities of other characters, in addition to matching non-combat skills.

Case in point-
Concentration. In combination with any other non combat skill, that's a whopping 3D (including MAPS) to any single action. It enables a Jedi to become ridiculously versatile. IF for instance, he needed to slice a computer or pull up a mine or hell, learn tactics, that's like a whopping 12+ extra character points assuming in the unlikely case that said Jedi is starting with 1D.

Also, Jedi Powers bypass completely skills that would take other character ages to learn. For example, Translate, Control Disease, Accelerate healing. A standard med tech/scholar would have to pay through the nose to get those effects (IN ADDITION to concentration) making them nigh useless.

A Jedi can specialize far more than any character and remain more versatile. This is why they are unbalanced, this is why there is a need in D6 to crack down on them.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TarlSS wrote:
No. The Jedi are overpowered because they can easily match the combat capabilities of other characters, in addition to matching non-combat skills.

Example?

Quote:
Case in point-
Concentration. In combination with any other non combat skill, that's a whopping 3D (including MAPS) to any single action. It enables a Jedi to become ridiculously versatile. IF for instance, he needed to slice a computer or pull up a mine or hell, learn tactics, that's like a whopping 12+ extra character points assuming in the unlikely case that said Jedi is starting with 1D.

First, this isn't a combat skill. Second, any character can take time to prepare and concentrate as per the rules, gaining up to a 3D bonus, a Jedi simply uses a shortcut with the force, but has to spend double CP to raise those force skills, has to know the power, and for a +3D bonus needs to make a difficult roll, that isn't exactly surpasing other character's abilities. While the Jedi is spending time and CP training his Control skill, a dedicated Slicer can increase 2 skills for the same CP cost, thus increasing in 2 areas. Eventually, this allows almost every other character to outstrip a Jedi in raw skill Dice. Also, with Concentration, it increases a single action for a single round, and really is of no use on complex tasks that take multiple rounds, hours, days, weeks, months. Further, Joe Jedi, at Control and Sense 6D will have a hard time getting that full 3D, and so what if he does, woohoo, he now has computer programming 5D...while the slicer, who actually increses his skills, is probably at at least 10D by now, asuming he and the Jedi started at the same time and earned roughly similar CP.

Quote:
Also, Jedi Powers bypass completely skills that would take other character ages to learn. For example, Translate, Control Disease, Accelerate healing. A standard med tech/scholar would have to pay through the nose to get those effects (IN ADDITION to concentration) making them nigh useless.

Jedi powers do not bypass other skills nor do they make them useless. I would like some examples of how you decided this. Every force power has limits and restrictions to it's abilities, and those that take the places of skills such as Languages do not let the Jedi actual undertsnad or leanr the language, he gleans and undertsanding temporarily through the force. He must use the force every time he wants to understand or communicate in that language again. Characters with Language skills can actual LEARN the languages. And as for a Med/tech/ or scholar paying through the nose, this is not true as they pay regular CP for skill advancement where the Jedi's force skills cost double. And again, the force doesn't grant the skill itself. Accelerate healing is no comparison for actual medical treatment, all it really does is halve the time needed between healing rolls and add +2 to 2 rolls. Where as, a bacta tank WILL heal you.

Quote:
A Jedi can specialize far more than any character and remain more versatile. This is why they are unbalanced, this is why there is a need in D6 to crack down on them.

Any character in D6 can become far superior to the Jedi in given skills while the Jedi specializes. The Jedi are not unbalanced as they pay double cost for their skills, have high target numbers for their abilities, will almost always have numerous MAP for multi skill use just from their force powers alone. Meanwhile, Bob bounty hunter, who dumps every skill point into blaster and is currently at 13D still just needs 13 CP to increase it, but Joe the Jedi at 6D Control needs 12 CP! When we look at most of the things a Jedi can do in a combat round, the Jedi, just raising his Lightsaber Combat skill is already at a 1D MAP and hasn't declared any actions yet. The bounty hunter, meanwhile, get's to shoot at 13D without special preparations, that's asuming he has no scope, no modifications to his gun, etc...

Try actually leanring the rules set before bashing them, Ok.
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Vanion
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TarlSS wrote:
No. The Jedi are overpowered because they can easily match the combat capabilities of other characters, in addition to matching non-combat skills.

Case in point-
Concentration. In combination with any other non combat skill, that's a whopping 3D (including MAPS) to any single action. It enables a Jedi to become ridiculously versatile. IF for instance, he needed to slice a computer or pull up a mine or hell, learn tactics, that's like a whopping 12+ extra character points assuming in the unlikely case that said Jedi is starting with 1D.

Also, Jedi Powers bypass completely skills that would take other character ages to learn. For example, Translate, Control Disease, Accelerate healing. A standard med tech/scholar would have to pay through the nose to get those effects (IN ADDITION to concentration) making them nigh useless.

A Jedi can specialize far more than any character and remain more versatile. This is why they are unbalanced, this is why there is a need in D6 to crack down on them.


But I think your forgetting that the WEG game was basically geared toward play during the Rebellion era. I realize that there is WEG material for the Old Republic era, but most of the info out there was originally designed with the Rebellion era in mind. Having said that, remember that these powers are not readily available if you do not have a master or a holocron... and how many jedi masters are running around during the Rebellion era? I think the Jedi is as powerful or as limited as either the GM allows or the campaigne calls for.

As far as I'm concerned, the jedis in the movies showed themselves capable in ways that non-force users were not. I am glad that the jedi in the RPG are reflected the same way! Especially after playing a D20 Jedi. The jedi and the force is much more accurately represented in the WEG rules... and that has always been my biggest concern with RPing in the SW universe... making sure everything looks, feels, and sounds as if it were taken straight from the movies.
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entropy
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:36 pm    Post subject: MAPS and Lightsaber damage Reply with quote

I realize that I am clearly in the minority here, and I certainly understand and agree with your view from a game balance standpoint, but then I have another question: If you reduce control dice to damage for multiple action penalties, do you also double control dice to damage for the use of a force point?
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Lord Aramus
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I double damage on force point rolls.. but not just for jedi Razz

its our most common (heroic act of self sacrifice) moment occurance.


I had an xwing pilot once who burned a force point on his damage roll with a heavy bomb (took the stats from the computer game "tie fighter" and he planted it into the hangar bay of a star destroyer while its shields were momentarily dropped so a wing of tie fighters could be launched.


it was burning for weeks in our campaign Razz
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