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The Death Star. Either of them.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: The Death Star. Either of them. Reply with quote

I'm sure has probably been discussed before.

And, yeah, I know this is space opera. So, just blur the lines as needed.

But...the DS is so massive, wouldn't it screw with planetary/satellite orbits, cause problems on worlds if it got too close, when the DS enters systems?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Short answer? Depends if they want it to. If galactic society in the SWU has mastered gravity, then all it would take is a little handwavium to say that the gravity well generated by the DS is neutralized to prevent exactly that.

Unless the Empire doesn't care whether a particular planet is damaged or not, in which case, they turn off the neutralization system...

In any case, neither Death Star lasted long enough for it to really be an issue.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:04 am    Post subject: Re: The Death Star. Either of them. Reply with quote

True.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I'm sure has probably been discussed before.

And, yeah, I know this is space opera. So, just blur the lines as needed.

But...the DS is so massive, wouldn't it screw with planetary/satellite orbits, cause problems on worlds if it got too close, when the DS enters systems?

The Death Star's natural gravity wouldn't be as much as moonlets their size due to a lower mass due to lower density (there's a lot of air inside). The more significant gravitational effect is the directional artificial gravity of 1g towards the "down" plane(s). Just entering star systems and flying through them wouldn't throw any orbits off. Over time of traveling near a terrestrial planet or moon, the Death Star probably could probably throw off their orbits, but when using the main weapon they wouldn't get close enough for the gravitational effect because being too close to an exploding planet could still damage a Death Star. The only reason the second Death Star was that close to the Forest Moon of Endor is because of the shield generator. With the massive gas giant Endor so close, I would think any natural gravitational effect from the incomplete Death Star would be negligible, and the directional artificial gravity was incomplete and pointed away from the Forest Moon.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's even possible the DS II was in a Lagrange point between the forest moon and Endor.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
It's even possible the DS II was in a Lagrange point between the forest moon and Endor.

Lagrange points in systems would be a great place for a Death Star to go into coast-mode, but that wasn't the case in RotJ because the DSII was in a geosynchronous orbit around the Forest Moon, always directly over the shield generator. The Forest Moon clearly has day and night cycles so has its own rotation, so the Death Star orbited around the planet. Endor-Forest Moon Lagrange points would be stable points in space traveling around the gas giant at specific distances from the Forest Moon, not orbiting around the moon as the moon rotates.

This Wikipedia gif is helpful. The gas giant Endor would be the little yellow ball in the middle, and the Forest Moon would be the orbiting body between L1 and L2. What the gif doesn't show is the orbiting body's own rotation, so the Death Star would be orbiting around it as it rotated, alternating between the L1 and L2 sides.


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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of internal gravity, was it that "south" was down, or was the center down (so decks were like onion layers)?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Speaking of internal gravity, was it that "south" was down, or was the center down (so decks were like onion layers)?


IIRC, the DS has northern and southern poles.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
Speaking of internal gravity, was it that "south" was down, or was the center down (so decks were like onion layers)?

IIRC, the DS has northern and southern poles.

Earth has north and south poles, but our gravity is effectually center down. It's a good question, Nexx. In both Death Stars, the super weapon is in the northern hemisphere. From the Falcon being pulled into DS I and Vader's arrival to DS II, the ships' down was oriented towards the DSs' southern hemispheres as they entered hanger bays in the equatorial trenches. Those hangers were south down. Also, the Emperor's tower on DS II was on the north pole, so south was down there too. I think it is safe to say that at least the northern hemispheres and equatorial trench levels of both DSs, the directional artificial gravity oriented south as down.

It would seem practical to me that the artificial gravity would be generated fo both hemispheres near the equator, the widest plane on the sphere, meaning that down was reversed in the southern hemisphere. That could be accomplished by turbolifts that traverse both hemispheres having their own artificial gravity and the ability to reorient when crossing hemispheres. If down is still south in the southern hemispheres, that would mean that as you go up from the southern polar region, they have to have artificial gravity rings every so often as each level gets wider as you go up. By having all the on screen action in both Death Stars take place in the equator levels and northern hemispheres, the gravity of the southern hemispheres is something they never had to establish.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got the impression that artificial gravity was generated locally, in the form of generator units built into the floors and/or ceilings, so that it could be oriented as needed. Since WEG's version of the Death Star had a "habitable crust" with gravity oriented center = down, and vertically oriented internal levels (north pole = up), it would make more since to have the gravity field shaped as needed to fit the area in question. In fact, some of the Deep Storage levels might not have gravity at all (just inertial compensation) to facilitate the rearranging and positioning of heavy equipment like AT-ATs and the like.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I got the impression that artificial gravity was generated locally, in the form of generator units built into the floors and/or ceilings, so that it could be oriented as needed. Since WEG's version of the Death Star had a "habitable crust" with gravity oriented center = down, and vertically oriented internal levels (north pole = up), it would make more since to have the gravity field shaped as needed to fit the area in question. In fact, some of the Deep Storage levels might not have gravity at all (just inertial compensation) to facilitate the rearranging and positioning of heavy equipment like AT-ATs and the like.

That's a more complex model but that works. If each local area's gravity was fully customizable, that would have to include gravity cancellation too. Otherwise, gravity from decks below would effect the desks above it. Is that your interpretation of repulsorlift technology at work? (The only way I can make sense of repulsolift tech is that it pushes down against gravity instead of cancelling out gravity.)

My model of the equatorial plane being down for both hemispheres means it only needs one two-sided gravity-generating level near the middle of the sphere. But that or my southern hemisphere rings would still result in gravity working the same on the inside and outside of the northern hemisphere. Since gravity doesn't stop at ceilings, the artificial gravity inside the DSs would extend outside the sphere going straight north. Just like on the inside of the DS, the 1g artificial gravity would be stronger than the station's natural gravity. The Battle of Yavin was also fought in the Northern Hemisphere of the DS because the trench run to the thermal exhaust port was up there (that was a smaller trench than the equatorial trench). My DS gravity model still allows for the damaged fighters to crash down on the DS as if they were crashing down onto the surface of an Earth-massed planet, and the northern polar region would have gravity at a similar angle to a natural spherical body. My models doesn't need gravity cancellation and seems more practical and energy efficient (as far as outrageously fantastic fictional planet killers go).
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Last edited by Whill on Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thinking is that artificial gravity has to be a separate tech from repulsorlifts, else it wouldn't function in deep space without a nearby gravity field to push against.

As far as system design, I picture a network of modules generating overlapping fields that combine to create a gravity field that can be tailored to fit the shape of the structure in question. If you want a section to have zero-G (or a different g-level than the surrounding areas), just turn off the field generators in that area (or don't install them in the first place). This also allows for ships maintaining artificial gravity if they lose power; a network of generators would be tied into local emergency power, or have their own internal power storage to continue operating (for a little while) on their own.

As far as ships crashing into the surface, I always thought that was more a question of trajectory than gravity.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if this is covered in the Death Star Technical Companion.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I wonder if this is covered in the Death Star Technical Companion.

That's where the idea of a spherical outer layer originated. The idea of vertically stacked inner layers was never confirmed, but the Incredible Cross Sections Death Star leaned more strongly in that direction.

IIRC, there was also mention of transition corridors between intersecting planes of artificial gravity.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Confirmed. Page 16. It devotes an entire paragraph in the right hand column to discussing the layout of the artificial gravity of the Death Star.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
My thinking is that artificial gravity has to be a separate tech from repulsorlifts, else it wouldn't function in deep space without a nearby gravity field to push against.

OK I guess we're on the same page there.

CRMcNeill wrote:
As far as system design, I picture a network of modules generating overlapping fields that combine to create a gravity field that can be tailored to fit the shape of the structure in question. If you want a section to have zero-G (or a different g-level than the surrounding areas), just turn off the field generators in that area (or don't install them in the first place). This also allows for ships maintaining artificial gravity if they lose power; a network of generators would be tied into local emergency power, or have their own internal power storage to continue operating (for a little while) on their own.

The power consumption for this network would be off the charts no matter where the power comes from. But I guess that would pale in comparison to the power needed to destroy planets, or even for a DS to travel through hyperspace. Here I was trying to be all practical with my DS design.

CRMcNeill wrote:
Confirmed. Page 16. It devotes an entire paragraph in the right hand column to discussing the layout of the artificial gravity of the Death Star.

Thanks. I'll check that out.
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