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"Less Than" Damaged
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
IMO, those who complain about the bulletproof Wookiee generally aren’t aware of exactly how tough an organic being can be. Physically, humans are wimps compared to pretty much every similarly sized organism on the planet, never mind a high-threat environment like Kashyyyk.


While I get what you're saying here, I tend to believe that humans are actually just as tough as other organisms, AND have the tenacity to overcome any somatic deficiencies they may have relative to their opposition or environment. Without doubt, humans are the most adaptable species on the planet, and based on m own casual inquiry into the subject, I find humans to be the most rugged. If we all lived like animals do (like Tarzan, for example), then as individuals, our physical qualities would be far more honed (I'm not talking about evolution here, but rather, just individuals being in much better physical shape due to the lifestyle).

Having said that, I tend to agree with you that wookiees ought to be outlandishly tough, since that is how the lore presents them as relative to human beings.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recall reading somewhere that the two things humans bring to the table are endurance (we have, on average, excellent stamina compared to other creatures, and can survive injuries and illnesses that would kill other creatures) and our intelligence (ability to build and use tools, and the ability to socialize and cooperate with each other). So, I don't disagree with you.

I was thinking more in the sense of how different calibers of rifle are rated for different kinds of game. A deer rifle is overkill on a human, never mind a big-game rifle, while the standard 5.56 military caliber is actually underpowered for use as a hunting weapon. Add that to most animal's survival instinct that drives them to ignore pain (since pain is a sign of weakness to other animals, especially predators), and most wild animals take way more killing than would be required of a human being.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I think that this idea is probably not compatible with the RoE damage rules (which I'm assuming you are using) because those rules already convert a successful hit into greater damage, such that it takes a significantly higher strength roll to resist a "well placed" hit.

IIRC, there is also a rule that allows a character to declare a specific Damage result, with the requirement that he A). call his shot in advance, and B). roll at least one level of Damage higher than the one he wants to inflict. So a character who wishes to deliberately Wound his target must state that when declaring his shot, and then hit successfully for at least Incapacitated Damage.

Combined with that, the RoE rules would allow the greater precision of a skilled to attacker to be much better at calling his shot.

Quote:
The final question is, "what do you consider a successful attack roll to simulate?" If the answer is that the successful attack roll simulates a momentary advantage gained in the fight, then, these rules make sense. But if the attack roll simulates mere "contact" of the intended strike, then there is nothing there that would suggest that just because the attack "hit" means it's powerful enough to affect the target. For example, I can punch a Star Destroyer all day long, but... (in d20 terms, most of the attacks would register as a "miss" or else be absorbed by the target's damage reduction). Similarly in d20, a "touch attack" ignores armor bonuses. In d20, a "hit" represents a hit in the gooey flesh, not mere contact with some part of the target's (armored) form.

The answer to this question has shifted with WEG's various versions. In 1E, you could hit, fail the Damage roll by >50% and still inflict a Stun result. In 2E and 2R&E, obviously, the threshold for Stun is much higher, but there is also a much more stark dividing line between Damaged and Undamaged (or Wounded and Unwounded, as the case may be).

What I'm suggesting is an attempt to recapture something of the spirit of the 1E rule, without completely reverting to it. To answer your question, I'd say a successful Damage roll inflicts a result with lasting physical effects (either a Stun that takes time to fully wear off, or a Wound that requires medical treatment). Getting jolted or knocked to the ground is indicator that the character was not completely unaffected by getting hit, but neither does he suffer any lasting effects.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I recall reading somewhere that the two things humans bring to the table are endurance (we have, on average, excellent stamina compared to other creatures
A big part of that is that we have better cooling ability than most other animals. Running generates heat. A human can run down a deer or giraffe because eventually those animals need to stop running so they can cool down. Humans don't need to stop. We can run for hours and hours and hours.

Naaman wrote:
In the case of the rule you present here, the attacker has won the attack roll, but lost the damage roll. In my opinion, such a rule shifts value away from the strength attribute (as well as wearing armor) and moves it to the dodge/melee parry skill.
Yes. I'd say that is one part of the four-part rationale or point of the rule change. The other points are (ii) to align getting hit with a blaster shot with what we see in the films where a blaster hit almost always, at a minimum, knocks down the target; (iii) to satisfy those who feel that getting hit with a blaster ought to (almost) always have some effect regardless of canon, because it just make sense*; (iv) makes for a better game by fixing a perceived problem with high strength/armored characters shrugging off blaster shots and/or with characters ignoring the threat of weapons because they can just spend some CPs to not take any damage*.

* Some folks have a similar issue with dodging while closing on a target, while effectively standing still, and when there isn't anywhere to dodge to. For dodging this is sometimes referred to as "doing the wacky chicken dance."
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I recall reading somewhere that the two things humans bring to the table are endurance (we have, on average, excellent stamina compared to other creatures, and can survive injuries and illnesses that would kill other creatures) and our intelligence (ability to build and use tools, and the ability to socialize and cooperate with each other). So, I don't disagree with you.

I was thinking more in the sense of how different calibers of rifle are rated for different kinds of game. A deer rifle is overkill on a human, never mind a big-game rifle, while the standard 5.56 military caliber is actually underpowered for use as a hunting weapon. Add that to most animal's survival instinct that drives them to ignore pain (since pain is a sign of weakness to other animals, especially predators), and most wild animals take way more killing than would be required of a human being.


If we are being honest, 5.56 is underrated for humans. Anything that will reliably kill a man in one shot will even more easily kill a deer. The factors not being considered are that deer are taken off guard, and usually with a well placed shot at (relatively) short range (remember: some states have minimum caliber requirements in order to help ensure a humane--quick--kill). A quality shot with 5.56 will reliably slay a deer as easily as a human. 77 grain is good for a one shot kill on either. The NATO stuff is just bad at killing in general. Its pathetic even against human targets: soldiers shot by it die of blood loss from multiple hits, while heavier calibers punch straight through bone (sternum) and delivering energy to the target while also punching a hole through it.

The ability to ignore pain, I tend to think, is generated by the individual's priorities, rather than actual capability. I would reason that a "ruggedized" human (i.e.Tarzan) is far tougher than a deer... I might also speculate that pound for pound,humans are the toughest. It seems that intelligence may play a part as well: even if injured, thehuman has superior problem solving ability, so can fight beyond somatic incapacitation.

Other than my remarks on 5.56, this is all just my opinion based on some of the feats I know humans have achieved.


Last edited by Naaman on Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:39 pm; edited 3 times in total
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

IIRC, there is also a rule that allows a character to declare a specific Damage result, with the requirement that he A). call his shot in advance, and B). roll at least one level of Damage higher than the one he wants to inflict. So a character who wishes to deliberately Wound his target must state that when declaring his shot, and then hit successfully for at least Incapacitated Damage..


The closest rule to that i see is the maiming rule, where a character can opt to maim rather than kill..
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Concerning Bren's post, what if the proposed rule only applied to targets not wearing armor? This way, a "weak" 4D human wearing 1D armor is "tougher" than the5D wookiee wearing none? So, one of the benes of wearing armor would be that you automatically ignore the jolted/knocked down (due to pain rather than pure force) effect.(?)
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Possible, but these days, it's rare to see ANY pc (even the 5d+ Str wookie) not add to that with armor (and in some wookie PC's cases, with power armor/Smasher armor) that gets moddified to the max..
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You cannot dodge it if you do not know it is coming, and you cannot hit it if you do not know its there.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, in any case, I have always ruled that if a character chooses not to dodge because he is "tough enough" to soak the hit, then the minimum result suffered is wounded, no matter how low the damage roll is. Expenditure of a CP can negate this effect (to represent the character consciously "toughing it out").
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OR have the enemy target JUST the armor to make it become a coffin for the character (hard to move in power armor that just got shut down AND the joints got welded by blaster fire!)
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Possible, but these days, it's rare to see ANY pc (even the 5d+ Str wookie) not add to that with armor (and in some wookie PC's cases, with power armor/Smasher armor) that gets moddified to the max..
Rare for you, but I suspect it is not rare in general. I just flipped through the PCs in our previous Star Wars campaigns and in our current active campaign.

The Stats
    41 PCs total
    7 or 8 with Armor (so fewer than 1 in 5 PCs wear armor)
    4 with above human STR equal to 5D+1, 5D, 4D+2, and 4D+2.

2 of the armor wearers were strong aliens. Their total damage resistance with armor was (6D physical / 5D energy) and (5D+3 physical / 4D+3) energy; 1 human was in the same category with STR 4D and powered armor +2D physical, +1D energy, +1D lifting (6D physical / 5D energy)

Armor Details
Current Campaign
Green Squad the Fakir Sector Campaign My current active campaign. Bentlix Risk a human male Gambler and Squad Leader, Cassanna Hewelac a human female Young Jedi, Graffa of Wōd a Shaull female Curious Explorer. None of these characters have armor. And they all have STR below 3D (2D+2, 2D, 2D respectively). Which I have to admit is kind of unusual.

Past Campaigns and PCs
1. Mouse and Montoya No armor.
2. Tora Jesek and Janassar Rae Janassar wore bounty hunter armor.
3. Tora and Bren No armor.
4. Tora alone Ditto.
5. Bren and Arkel Arkel wore a light version of Coynite armor +1D physical only 50% or more of the time with no armor the rest of the time.
6. The CARP group (Deklin, Maris, Mandok, Gorre, Dirk, Grawg Nach. Of the six PCs one or two wore bounty hunter armor.
7. Maris and Deklin No armor.
8. Desperate Chance (Brice, Lucus, Mikki) No armor.
9. Miscellaneous PCs (Doc, Rijel, Rork, Tox, Edelrod, Paloma) Tox wore powered armor (+2D/1D). Paloma wore light armor.
10. Miscellaneous Union PCs (Deklin, An s’Laq, Logan, Raven, Voren Na’al, Connal, Akeo, Avril, Ashley, Martel, Grukla, Angela, Jaska) An s’Laq wore a blast vest.
The Light of Freedom M’Klane, Estrella, As’Rais, JoMo, Hek Nkik . As’Rais wore Coynite armor +1D+1 physical/+1 energy.

Even More Details.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Other than my remarks on 5.56, this is all just my opinion based on some of the feats I know humans have achieved.

But consider also the incredible toughness of some of the larger animals. I once heard a story about a pretty horrific bear mauling (the story was told in a classroom setting by a member of the surgical team that operated on the mauling victim). The bear turned the tables on a hunter and guide and got claws-and-teeth on the guide. It took 6 shots from a .357 Magnum to the head at Point Blank range and still kept up the attack, not dying until as much as an hour later, not from traumatic injury to the brain, but from blood loss.

My point is, we can argue about the relative toughness of various creatures on this planet, but humans do not place first on that list. Not by a long shot. And there's no reason to assume that a creature like a Wookiee, which evolved in a far more high-threat environment than Earth, would not or could not be much tougher than a human.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I agree with you about the wookiees.

Look up the story of Roy Benevidez for an example of a story that will support what I'm saying.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
No, I agree with you about the wookiees.

Look up the story of Roy Benevidez for an example of a story that will support what I'm saying.

That's a heck of a story. I guess my argument is that a Wookiee surviving an identical amount of damage would be a lot closer to "average" for a Wookiee than Roy Benevidez would be for a human.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Possible, but these days, it's rare to see ANY pc (even the 5d+ Str wookie) not add to that with armor (and in some wookie PC's cases, with power armor/Smasher armor) that gets moddified to the max..
Rare for you, but I suspect it is not rare in general. I just flipped through the PCs in our previous Star Wars campaigns and in our current active campaign.

The Stats
    41 PCs total
    7 or 8 with Armor (so fewer than 1 in 5 PCs wear armor)
    4 with above human STR equal to 5D+1, 5D, 4D+2, and 4D+2.

2 of the armor wearers were strong aliens. Their total damage resistance with armor was (6D physical / 5D energy) and (5D+3 physical / 4D+3) energy; 1 human was in the same category with STR 4D and powered armor +2D physical, +1D energy, +1D lifting (6D physical / 5D energy)

Armor Details
Current Campaign
Green Squad the Fakir Sector Campaign My current active campaign. Bentlix Risk a human male Gambler and Squad Leader, Cassanna Hewelac a human female Young Jedi, Graffa of Wōd a Shaull female Curious Explorer. None of these characters have armor. And they all have STR below 3D (2D+2, 2D, 2D respectively). Which I have to admit is kind of unusual.

Past Campaigns and PCs
1. Mouse and Montoya No armor.
2. Tora Jesek and Janassar Rae Janassar wore bounty hunter armor.
3. Tora and Bren No armor.
4. Tora alone Ditto.
5. Bren and Arkel Arkel wore a light version of Coynite armor +1D physical only 50% or more of the time with no armor the rest of the time.
6. The CARP group (Deklin, Maris, Mandok, Gorre, Dirk, Grawg Nach. Of the six PCs one or two wore bounty hunter armor.
7. Maris and Deklin No armor.
8. Desperate Chance (Brice, Lucus, Mikki) No armor.
9. Miscellaneous PCs (Doc, Rijel, Rork, Tox, Edelrod, Paloma) Tox wore powered armor (+2D/1D). Paloma wore light armor.
10. Miscellaneous Union PCs (Deklin, An s’Laq, Logan, Raven, Voren Na’al, Connal, Akeo, Avril, Ashley, Martel, Grukla, Angela, Jaska) An s’Laq wore a blast vest.
The Light of Freedom M’Klane, Estrella, As’Rais, JoMo, Hek Nkik . As’Rais wore Coynite armor +1D+1 physical/+1 energy.

Even More Details.


We've only ever seen a couple of wookiee PCs in our group over the years. To my recollection, none of them have ever bothered with armor (probably due to the Dex penalty, but I can't say for sure the reasoning, because I always play humans).
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