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"Less Than" Damaged
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
An alternate version would be to just apply the Wounded dice penalty to the Strength roll, as well.


I do this.

I'm leaning that way, as well. It makes sense that a person who has been physically compromised by damage would be more vulnerable to additional damage. I recall positing elsewhere that the same would be true of vehicles and starships, but for that, I'd use the same penalties as Damaged Armor, as g mentioned.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Dredwulf60 wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
An alternate version would be to just apply the Wounded dice penalty to the Strength roll, as well.


I do this.

I'm leaning that way, as well. It makes sense that a person who has been physically compromised by damage would be more vulnerable to additional damage.

I've already made my game slightly deadlier but the main reason I don't like this idea is because even in RAW it is already built into the damage/wound system that being physically compromised by damage makes you more vulnerable to additional damage by way of how wounds accumulate. Being wounded twice, rolling the same Strength to resist damage, and getting wounded result again makes you Incapacitated. If you have 0-1 wounds and get another wound result, you are not incapacitated but each wound brings you closer.

A character's wound status already makes a character more vulnerable to damage and death without lowering the strength to resist damage being rolled from being wounded. Each wound status moves the character closer and closer to death. And for rare cases where an Incapacitated character takes more damage, there not being a die roll penalty associated with the status means characters would roll full Strength when Wounded Twice rolls -2D to resist damage? That doesn't make sense to me.
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Dredwulf60 wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
An alternate version would be to just apply the Wounded dice penalty to the Strength roll, as well.


I do this.

I'm leaning that way, as well. It makes sense that a person who has been physically compromised by damage would be more vulnerable to additional damage.

I've already made my game slightly deadlier but the main reason I don't like this idea is because even in RAW it is already built into the damage/wound system that being physically compromised by damage makes you more vulnerable to additional damage by way of how wounds accumulate. Being wounded twice, rolling the same Strength to resist damage, and getting wounded result again makes you Incapacitated. If you have 0-1 wounds and get another wound result, you are not incapacitated but each wound brings you closer.

A character's wound status already makes a character more vulnerable to damage and death without lowering the strength to resist damage being rolled from being wounded. Each wound status moves the character closer and closer to death.


But when you have the archetypical blaster-proof wookiee, who doesn't bother to seek cover; A really lucky roll might finally wound him.

Subsequent attacks are going to be easier to hit him because of the skill penalty to avoid the shots, but if actually wounding him is just a really lucky chance in the first place, and remains a really lucky chance shot, what really changes for the wookiee? re his chances to take more damage? Is he going to bother to take cover now?

I suppose he might consider "My enemy just got a lucky shot via the wild die and I rolled poorly. That could possibly happen again."

But more likely a player might say "That was a fluke. Not much chance that is going to happen again this fight."

Yes he gets more wounded if he DOES take a wound...but the chances of taking that wound again are as low as it always was.

When my players get shot, they are very quick to realize their chances of survival are compromised. They take cover early and often.

And when my players are facing an enemy that seems to be shrugging off their blaster fire, they keep trying because when they finally do score some damage they know the chances to keep wearing it down just got a little better.

Caveat: I use a shadow-run based wound system which has a couple more stages on the damage track.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am in agreement. Several other game systems have your soak modified by your wound level, from shadow run to white wolfs WoD, so why not do it with SW?
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Several other game systems have your soak modified by your wound level, from shadow run to white wolfs WoD, so why not do it with SW?

For those using RAW or near-RAW, I stated why not above.

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Dredwulf60 wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
An alternate version would be to just apply the Wounded dice penalty to the Strength roll, as well.

I do this.

I'm leaning that way, as well. It makes sense that a person who has been physically compromised by damage would be more vulnerable to additional damage.

I've already made my game slightly deadlier but the main reason I don't like this idea is because even in RAW it is already built into the damage/wound system that being physically compromised by damage makes you more vulnerable to additional damage by way of how wounds accumulate. Being wounded twice, rolling the same Strength to resist damage, and getting wounded result again makes you Incapacitated. If you have 0-1 wounds and get another wound result, you are not incapacitated but each wound brings you closer.

A character's wound status already makes a character more vulnerable to damage and death without lowering the strength to resist damage being rolled from being wounded. Each wound status moves the character closer and closer to death.

But when you have the archetypical blaster-proof wookiee, who doesn't bother to seek cover; A really lucky roll might finally wound him.

Subsequent attacks are going to be easier to hit him because of the skill penalty to avoid the shots, but if actually wounding him is just a really lucky chance in the first place, and remains a really lucky chance shot, what really changes for the wookiee? re his chances to take more damage? Is he going to bother to take cover now?

I suppose he might consider "My enemy just got a lucky shot via the wild die and I rolled poorly. That could possibly happen again."

But more likely a player might say "That was a fluke. Not much chance that is going to happen again this fight."

Yes he gets more wounded if he DOES take a wound...but the chances of taking that wound again are as low as it always was.

When my players get shot, they are very quick to realize their chances of survival are compromised. They take cover early and often.

And when my players are facing an enemy that seems to be shrugging off their blaster fire, they keep trying because when they finally do score some damage they know the chances to keep wearing it down just got a little better.

Caveat: I use a shadow-run based wound system which has a couple more stages on the damage track.

I do not allow any PCs to have more than 5D in any attribute, even if the species range is higher (So in my game 6D Strength Herglics could only appear as NPCs but even then they would be rare). It does eliminate the 6D Strength PCs, but that's not even the main reason. I do it because small PC groups mean PCs have the best chance of success if they are more well rounded, so the attributes should not be min-maxed. Not only is 5D the max attribute, but a PC in my game can't have more than one attribute at 4D or higher, and PCs cannot have any attributes less than 2D.

Also on the Strength vs. damage end, PCs in my game find that they cannot get away with wearing armor all the time. There are places they have to go where it is not permitted and others missions/jobs where it would blow their cover and/or make them stick out like a sore thumb when they should be blending in. I don't run bounty hunter or military campaigns. I'm mostly smugglers and rebel spec ops. So armor has its place on occasion but it can't always be relied upon.

As you referred to, wounded die roll penalties do lower your defensive and offensive capabilities which increase a character's chances of being hit, and being hit more often increases your chances of being wounded worse (some PCs to a lesser degree than others, yes).

My game is deadlier for everyone than RAW is multiple ways. I have tweaked the character damage chart so that some wound status results are easier to get than in RAW. I have also tweaked the wound accumulation rules based on assigning each wound status a numerical value and simple arithmetic (For PCs and important NPCs, it is W=1, W2=2, I=3, MW=4, and K=5). If a character is already W and they get an I result, they go to MW, and if they get a MW result they are instantly K. If a character is already W2 and they get an I or MW result, they are K. See this post for more details.

I have also tweak the healing rules. Using medpacs on I and MW characters takes more than one round in my game. I have also added a limitation that after a medpac has been used successfully, another medpac cannot be used on that character until there is another change in wound status from damage (otherwise why would there even be bacta tanks?). See this post for more details.

So my players also know that is anyone in the party is wounded it is serious, so they should consider looking for cover or removing that character from the combat situation.

Dredwulf, these things are all just tweaks to RAW. IIRC, your game system is much more heavily modified from RAW. I would not at all be surprised if your whole system is balanced and works well for you. Above I wasn't really replying to your original comment but more to CRM's reply of considering the change of having the wound penalties apply to Damage Resistance rolls. I was urging caution for GMs in general that use mostly RAW or only slightly tweaked game systems to introduce that mod.

As an alternative to your suggestion, I could maybe see a more conservative mod of having a wound status reduce the Damage Resistance roll by 1 pip for each die, so a wounded PC would roll -1 to resist damage, a wounded twice PC would roll -2, and so on. But with my system already tweaked deadlier in multiple ways, I'm probably not going to do even that.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you do know there are templates with 2 4D attributes?

Why limit the players like that.

Yes it is hard to kill someone with 6D str wearing a +2D armor.
But still, that is part of the knowing when to fight and when to flee.

Also there are more waus than one to "kill" someone armored and tough....explosives, vaccum, there are so many ways.

If 5D is possible for a species, then why not allow them?
Yes if the attribute is maxed out, it does come at a cost of the other attributes.

I for one would rather have a high to very high dex than strength .
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
you do know there are templates with 2 4D attributes?

You do know I've been playing this game for 30 years now, right?

Mamatried wrote:
I for one would rather have a high to very high dex than strength

High Dex is appropriate for a lot of Smuggler and Rebel characters. I always tell my players that the dodge skill is the most important skill in the game because it is better to not be hit by blaster bolts in the first place.

Mamatried wrote:
Why limit the players like that.

Yes it is hard to kill someone with 6D str wearing a +2D armor.
But still, that is part of the knowing when to fight and when to flee.

Also there are more waus than one to "kill" someone armored and tough....explosives, vaccum, there are so many ways.

If 5D is possible for a species, then why not allow them?
Yes if the attribute is maxed out, it does come at a cost of the other attributes.

PCs can have up to 5D. I am used to running small PC groups, and with player attrition due to job and other life changes, sometimes campaigns even become solo campaigns. As you indicated, putting a lot into a one or two attributes comes at a cost of other attributes. PCs all have their areas of expertise but in my game they need to be a bit more well-rounded. In my game, all PCs of any species have 18D in attributes and the minimum attribute value is 2D. The max attribute value is 3D+2 except for one attribute which can go up to 5D. Species attribute dice code ranges still apply, but FYI for my game, humans have a max of 4D+1 in all six attributes. So I've had human templates with a 4D+1 attribute and a 3D+2 attribute.

Yes, the game has a couple templates with two 4D attributes but templates are just like any other game stats in my game - They are not the inviolable word of the RAW God. I, as GM of my game, have the ultimate power to change them and I have whenever I see fit. All GMs should feel they have this authority for their games. And by the way, my rule you're objecting to is for player-created templates. So if a player choses one of my available existing templates with two 4D or more attributes, then they get those attributes. I have a lot of templates but only have a couple of those for cases I felt those attributes honored the fluff the best. Finally, if a player really feels strongly they need two attributes at 4D or higher to fully realize their character concept, they can pitch me on it and I will consider it. I've never had a player that expressed any dissatisfaction with his PC's template attributes.

If you are used to running games with five or six PCs, then PCs being well rounded is not as important. Next month will be 30 years since I started running this game. I've run small PC group campaigns enough to know that too much min-maxing can be devastating. My system works for me. You should do whatever works for you in your game.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I generaly run a group of 4, though the true number is 5 players, with one due to work, only being able to play every now and then.
His character is thus turned to a character that is a contact unless he is there, an active contact and so close to GM character as you can come.

My regular team is classed by roles and skills, more than templates alone.

The main pilot of the group is actually not the most specialized pilot, but the most all round one.
he is the Space rescue corps officer.
a good 4D in mechanical AND capital ships as well as space transport.
He is primarily a space transport pilot (9D+2), and capital ship 7D+1
with his gunneryand shileds to capitals being at 6D
Starship gunnery and shields both at only 5D+2, as heis not a combat pilot pr say.
he learned starfighters to 6D though.

Though with the 2D dex he tends to stay out of the worst gunfights.
His blster and dodge are both at 5D, been that level for quite a while.....

Our other pilot, less alround but specialized is a brash pilot template, focused more on
only starfighter piloting, and actual gunfighting. as his base dex is at 3D, he has dodge and basterboth at 7D, his Stamina is 6D
his piloting and starship gunnery skills are 7D in the gunnery and shileds, 10D in starfighters, but "only" 5D+2 in transports

our main fighting guy, is our thief using the professional thief template, giving the following attributes.
dex 4D with blaster, brawling parry, dodge and melee all fairly high, ranging from 6D up to 10D
less focus in his 2D kno and tech and mec attributes as they are to him not the most used or needed ones.
He still focuses on value, law, and jet pack and security as well some demolition from those attributes but his min role is sneak, steal or kill.

this eaves us with our last "regular" team member, the one they call "doc"
the nick name say it all. good cmobat medic based on the wealthy Physician template, focused mostly on the kno and tec skills, but is able to more than
hold own in combat with her base 3D dex

In this group there re TWO templates with 4D in two Attributes....and I can not see any issue with it, nor can I find how the group is not covered almost
100% as to being versitile, as someone do know the needed skill, eithr by their default attribute or by traning.

I however actively use, and my players do too, the skills not listed on the sheet, skills that by RAW the players do know, they are not marked on the sheet
to save room. The only skills marked on the sheet is the default from the tmeplate as well any other that has been given any rank above default.


now all my guys are human though, but we did have a 5D str Wookie, but given his size it was hard to get ANY armor to fit him, so while the thief and the others
with a 3D str actually wore armor boositing them to 4D-6D in mere protection.
THis included all penalties to dex from said armors.

The wookie with his 5D strength and few if any armors to actually fit....he turned extinct
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks like your PCs are experienced and you've got all your bases covered with the PC group. Character creation happens at the beginning of the campaign before any advancement so my character creation rules are based on my experience for the best way to get a PC group to the point of experience. It often means not being over specialized when they inevitably lose a character. That 2D Dex pilot of yours had to work his way up to having 5D Blaster and 5D Dodge. Now he's good to go in a firefight. Good thing he survived to get to that point.

It's not like I am suppressing PCs from excelling in any areas. Every PC can have one attribute from 4D-5D if within the species range for that attribute, and they can also have one or even two other high attributes as high as 3D+2, which is not sucky. It may not be in absolute freedom, but even RAW says that a player-created template is subject to GM approval. I am just adding a couple stipulations towards approval instead of just letting someone completely min-max just for me to deny it in the approval stage. I can't see how anyone could see my system as oppressive. I strongly feel that roleplaying should be a collaborative effort. Players who make a big deal about absolute freedom in char gen tend to be self-centered and not care as much about the rest of the group.

My system is based on experience but maybe it it does come out of some deficiency of myself as a GM in balancing the difficulty of the adventures for more min-maxed PC group which may vary if someone unexpectedly can't make it. You can only do so much with droids and it is not my first choice to play NPCs that accompany the PCs just to fill out their skill set. Perhaps that is also a deficiency. My first campaign had players playing two PCs each for a while and that is also not my first choice. Maybe my strongest characteristic as a GM is knowing my strengths, weaknesses and preferences well enough to plan my game around them. I do everything for the sake of the group as a whole having a good time.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would Not be able to play the game if I could not play my character's concept.
If the rules allows for xD to place on attributes with YD as a max, then my allocation is how I see the character.
My own player character was a custom template, or rather a slightly modified template, based of the Professional Thief template.

Moved pip around to make it into the following.

4D dex, 2D kno, 3D, 4D str, 3D tec, 2D mec.........
Naturally due to a thief would be some what of a tech head, security and the "burglary" related tech skills is needed.
High dex for dodge more than fighting.
High strength more for climbing than for damage resistance.

so why would this as it makes sense be disallowed with a for some reason only 1 4d or the world ends??

Why, I really don't understand the need for more limits then ones that are and they work almost perfectly.

Every attribute above 3D comes at a cost.

Power levels should be looked at considering ALL ( human) NPCs to have minimum of 2D in all Attributes.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
I would Not be able to play the game if I could not play my character's concept...

so why would this as it makes sense be disallowed with a for some reason only 1 4d or the world ends??

Why, I really don't understand the need for more limits then ones that are and they work almost perfectly.

If your strict concept ends up being outside of my rules, you will never play in my game. Duly noted...

Creating A New Template, R&E p.30-33 wrote:
If you still can't find what you're looking for, you can create your own template... When you're done, show your new template to the gamemaster for approval. The gamemaster can change or cross out anything that can unbalance play.

The GM has to determine what can unbalance play in his own game based on his own experiences. This is subjective, not universal. See below for more on GM authority and powers over his own game.

Mamatried wrote:
Power levels should be looked at considering ALL ( human) NPCs to have minimum of 2D in all Attributes.

It doesn't take someone with a math degree to know that it doesn't make any sense for an average to equal a minimum, so this is obviously a flaw with RAW. In my game, this flaw is corrected in that the human min attributes are 1D, so human NPCs can have as low as 1D.

Mamatried wrote:
If the rules allows for xD to place on attributes with YD as a max, then my allocation is how I see the character.

I am obviously talking about what the rules allow in my game so it is clear that you are arguing from the view of "inherent RAW supremacy", so let me be the one to break it to you: that premise is not objectively accepted on this website. Do you realize that this thread is in a forum category called House Rules? Do you understand what "House Rules" means?

Now of course there is nothing wrong with you running your game by RAW if that works for you. That is your prerogative. But many of us here reject the notion that just because an author's work was officially published that it is somehow inherently superior to a GM's own rules for his own game. I am perfectly qualified to write game rules, and for my own game I am more qualified than the published authors. At the Rancor Pit, we share our game modifications with each other. Sometimes what others do inspires me to make changes to my own game. Sometimes I adopt what they share as is. Sometimes I tweak it. Sometimes I address the issue with RAW that their mod addressed in a completely different way. Sometimes I reject it. Sometimes it helps reinforce my own choice of rules. Sometimes I decide that I'll stick with RAW. Sometimes my house rules helps others in the same ways.

Since you venerate RAW so much, here's some more RAW for you:

The Rules, R&E p.73-74 wrote:
If you're going to be the gamemaster, you need to know the rules.
...
You've got even more latitude in your game. First, you only have to use the rules you feel like using. Why? Because it's you're game. Run it the way you want to.

Next, if you don't like the rules here, make up your own.

When you're running your game, you can choose which rules to follow strictly, which rules to overlook... and which to make up when you think they're needed.

But let me warn you, you've got to be firm with the people who're going to try to bend the rules to suit themselves.

I would also suggest reading the How To Gamemaster chapter, especially p.69. Even if you are only a player, it is imperative that players understand the GM's role in the game.

Anakin began his life as a slave against his choice. After being free for many years, he chose to become a slave to the Dark Side. In ANH he told Obi-Wan he was "the master" but that was a lie. I hope that all gamemasters take these R&E quotes to heart and truly be the masters of their own games. You can choose to be a slave to RAW, but you don't have to be.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whill: I never meant to bash your way of doing it, but I have more and more ran across GM that to me seems to have all sorts of limits on characters that seems to be just because.

Now I can see how a group and GM can run into a wall if they have a group of maxed out specialists, that can shoot but not read, or pilot but not shoot etc.

What I can not understand though is why add more limitations than the 12D +6 Attributes.

If the limitations are that important, why not simply say use +2D to attributes, allowing you a flat 2D+2. Now the limitations are there.

I simply don't understand the reasoning behind it, experience may be beu what experience can possibly deem a 18D character with 4D 4D 3D 3D 2D 2D in any way game breaking, less specialized or less allround.

I simply don't understand the reasons behind most such, and sort of wonder why this is so important and how the above can break things.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
I would Not be able to play the game if I could not play my character's concept.
If the rules allows for xD to place on attributes with YD as a max, then my allocation is how I see the character..


For one, not every DM allows custom builds where you get to allocate as you wish. Some flat out only use listed templates..
And i've never understood the "i won't play if i don't get what i want" mantra..
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
I would Not be able to play the game if I could not play my character's concept.
If the rules allows for xD to place on attributes with YD as a max, then my allocation is how I see the character..


For one, not every DM allows custom builds where you get to allocate as you wish. Some flat out only use listed templates..
And i've never understood the "i won't play if i don't get what i want" mantra..


Would not this depend on the mantra?

I mean there are systems where pilots are pilots but can not fly, then a concept of a flying pilot is not unreasonable.
I want to be chuck norris ( with the memes) is unreasonable.

I for one prefer the premade template, but if a player wants to have 4D 4D 4D 2D 2D 2D then I'l let him, but at the same I will not cut him an inch of slack when he needs a 3-4D in one of the skills that he decided to dump.

Just recently there was this "beginning" adventure mentioned on the forum here, a good start and introductionary.

Having run that mission as well as others, I found in this mission no less than 2 pilots at a 3D+X was recomended.
I have ran it with a group that even with some freedom on the attributes to be what ever the min/max allows and there were zero issues.

I ran it with a group under various restrictions, and ended up with a 1 pilot group, they struggled, but they made the choces of having one pilot at a certain minimum level. they failed in getting both ships up and actually due to that failed and died.

I also had the group with extremely specielazied characters, each almost only capable to his role and nothing much else.
And there each managed to do his part, and make it still, as two were pilots, one by default and training one by default only.

so regardless how I min/maxed the characters in the group, in playtesting missions, when not playing the full gruop we sometimes playtest previous missions with various characters, and as long as we stick within the species max, we have found that players may specialize so much they help make a mission fail, like a team with only one 3D+X pilot be it by training or atribute........if they make that mistake then they die, fail or otherwise can not do what they was supposed to.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:

I mean there are systems where pilots are pilots but can not fly, then a concept of a flying pilot is not unreasonable.
I want to be chuck norris ( with the memes) is unreasonable.


So you want uberness right out of the gate?? That's what it sounds like. A starting character with 3d mech and 2d placed in piloting is already better than most NPCs, at 4d professional level, so how is that 'not being a flying pilot'??
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