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"Less Than" Damaged
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:

I would say yes it would be reasonable that the old player also then used the book and the templates the others chose from.
BUT I would say that it would not be reasonable to say that regardless of what the boo or template states I don't allow the attrinutes there, you can only have one xD and so and so..........


Thanks. Though on your latter line, if i am using base book templates, then i've already approved those, regardless of whether they had two attributes at 4d or such..
So if i've already green lit them, why would i then booboo their being selected?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
Yupp a litte mix up there.....

I would say yes it would be reasonable that the old player also then used the book and the templates the others chose from.
BUT I would say that it would not be reasonable to say that regardless of what the boo or template states I don't allow the attrinutes there, you can only have one xD and so and so..........

Mama, you've restated this same thing multiple times. As I've started:
    (1) R&E p.30-33 states, "If you still can't find what you're looking for, you can create your own template... When you're done, show your new template to the gamemaster for approval. The gamemaster can change or cross out anything". I agree with this rule. The gamemaster is the master of the game.
    (2) I do allow my players to have the opportunity to sell me on their character concept requiring two attributes of 4D or more. The few templates that I have with two 4D or more attributes are "pre-approved" character concepts. If a player is designing his own template, I have to consider the template for approval anyway, attribute dice allocation and all.

Naaman wrote:
I think you are conflating garhkal's GM rules with Whill's.

For what it's worth, I don't think either of them is unreasonable with their standards.

Thanks! That means a lot coming from you.

Naaman has shared with me an in-depth character background he crafted for a character. I would have to say that most GMs have never had a player like Naaman. He is the type of player who might get me to approve his PC with multiple 4D or more attributes. He could earn it with pouring so much detail into his character.


Thanks, Whill.

But, to be fair, character creation is the primary appeal of RPGs to me. The way my mind works, there is something fun about trying to balance opportunity costs in order to express a concept. I try to stick as close to whatever rules there are, and if I just can't, I'll pitch some compromises to the GM. There have been a few times when the GM just wouldn't go for it (usually, I suspect, for simplicity's sake, rather than because of some staunch commitment to "the rules"), and of those times, most play experiences were underwhelming.

Now, when I say "character creation," I'm referring to not only the starting character, but the projected development of that character along a story-based arc (to include both character development and skill/ability development, which may be influenced by the story progression).

Oh, and, Whill, you have PM.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Now, when I say "character creation," I'm referring to not only the starting character, but the projected development of that character along a story-based arc (to include both character development and skill/ability development, which may be influenced by the story progression).

Oh, and, Whill, you have PM.

Thank you! Session Zero of my campaign include the whole group discussing the type of campaign and general story arc and theme. Then we discuss and decide as a group who will play what type of character in broad party role terms such as pilot, copilot, gun bunny, face, tech, Force-user, etc. and of course these roles can and do overlap (primary this, secondary that, etc.).

Next each player and I meet individually to hash out specifics such as species, template, character background, personality, objectives, and character arcs for the campaign. Of course players get together with each other for ideas for the inter-character relationship aspects of the character arcs. Then each player fine tunes all the details, completes a character sheet and submits it to me for final approval. Then we discuss any possible questions or concerns I have and agree on any tweaks or changes, but it is honestly very rarely that by that point in the process there is anything rejected by me. And when rejections do occur, the majority of them are equipment or weapons, not details of the character itself.

Then each player creates some NPC underworld contacts of his PC and we finalize them together. And at some point, as a group we design the campaign's (starting) ship.

Mamatried wrote:
I must have misunderstood then as it seemed to me it was only the "pre made" templates with a 2x 4D combo. that you accepted, this due you you stating 1 4d, and could be 4d+1, and then a 3d+2, but not 2 at 4d.

I can not see this in any way, regardless of how the attributes are allocated.

OK, you misunderstood, even though I stated multiple times that I do consider multiple 4D or higher attributes if it is really important to the player's character concept. I am gamemaster and I am master of my own game. I make the rules, but I am gamemaster so I have the authority to make exceptions to my own rules. The rules are there for a good reason. The rules are there to support me doing my job. But ultimately, my judgement is superior to even my own rules. This is all GM 101. I understood this in my childhood in the 80s, but I have gotten a little better at it over the years.

Mamatried wrote:
As you stated you liked versitile characters, and to me it seems you have experienced most being overly specialized, maybe.

Incorrect. Actually just the opposite. I've been running this game for 30 years. I had very few overspecialized characters in the early days but learned early on it can be bad so implemented my player-created template rules in the early 90s. In the process I described at the top of this post, I very rarely have had any player challenge the rule and try to have multiple superlative attributes. I have never had a player and I not come to an agreement on attributes. I never had a player quit the campaign over it.

But I have never had you as a player. If you and your group don't experience the the problem I addressed with my rule, then great. It has no bearing on you. Please keep in mind the forum posting guideline (that is especially house rule discussions) which includes, "if you vehemently oppose an idea and/or don’t have anything to add to the discussion, please consider just moving on." Thank you.

Mamatried wrote:
Not that I personally would ever do it, but I can see value in a 4D 4D 4D 2D 2D 2D attribute range.

Part of a player group of a good number of regular PCs that covers the character's deficiencies, this PC could possibly do just fine in my game. But if the PC ended up out of his element and away from his companions, the PC could fail miserably. As a GM I make an effort to make all attributes important so there are no effective dump stats in my game. This PC would inevitable be in less than idea situations and it may be deadly. Even a low technical could get you killed if you can't diffuse the explosive in time. Sure it could happen to any character but chances are greater the more 2D attributes you have.

Tol-Yun wrote:
And I thought this thread was about damage and how to imply some means of balancing high str. characters in a fight...

Does "broken templates and why they are broken/ the deeper meaning of attribute limits" not deserve a topic of its own?

Topic drift is a normal everyday thing here. Normally I would be happy to oblige a request to split a thread when a tangent conversation dominates a thread, but not in this case because it is a quite pointless conversation.

Not too far off from the OP, a mod was thrown up to address the "Blaster-proof Wookiee" phenomena and I responded with why I felt that mod would be bad in my own game but also in RAW. That lead to Mama repeatedly attacking my solutions to problems he doesn't see as even existing. Stating your opinion in response to another opinion is fine, but this whole entire tangent is Mama bashing my house rules. If he wants to create his own thread devoted to attacking my house rules he is welcome to and anyone who wants to discuss it there can. Either way, I agree that this tangent should just end here now and we should get back on track.
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