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Quick Blast Radius Rule
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, the Sun Crusher's armor is OP, so if the power armor is properly inertially compensated and made with the same technobabble armor as the Sun Crusher, they should EASILY take the shell and keep on truckin'.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
And imo that's part of the issue.. Can you imagine someone wearing 'power armor' and taking the shell from an M1-Abrams full in the chest and walking away with barely a scratch??

Depends on the armor, I suppose. Something sufficiently advanced could include a miniaturized inertial damping system that protects the wearer from high-power impacts. Of course, that doesn't sound like what he's talking about...

CRMcNeill wrote:
And in a # of Starwars novels, the heroes do just that.. Proximity detonate a proton torp to cause damage to everyone around it..

I was thinking more in terms of a warhead with a simple sensor to detect when it's near a target, or an unguided missile set with a basic timer, so that it detonates after a preset number of seconds from firing (that just happens to coincide with a squadron of X-wings flying through that area of space).

There was at least one incident in the Wraith Squadron books where Zsinj used the Iron Fist's concussion missile launchers as anti-straighter weapons, set to detonate when they were in close proximity to the attacking starfighters.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With woven nanotubes and layers of graphene, it may soon be possible to take a hit from a tank and survive. We created centimeter thick, nano-woven titanium disulphate armor that can take a .50 caliber armor piercing round without a scratch.

But that's real life. Back in the fantasy world, I was facing an AT-ST. That's not a battle tank as much as an armored anti-personnel/light tank. It's main weapon does 8D character scale damage. That's double human max strength. But add in armor that's +2D against energy, and a +3D personal shield generator, and now you are resisting at 9D. But most of that resistance comes from equipment. An unequiped human is going to be hurt from a chicken walker's main laser.

Or much lower on character points.

A Barabel with 5D strength and natural armor is resisting at 6D. Add 2D of armor and you're even with the AT-ST's big gun. When you're playing an anthropomorphic alligator, there's some play in the rules. And if a player has min-maxed for a specific purpose, like soaking damage, then a good GM let's them have their moment of glory. It is a game after all, you want to have a fun time.

Imagine if it was an Estonian!

It's two other weapons do 6D for the blaster and 7D for the grenade launcher, character scale. 2D & 3D walker scale. Excellent against personnel and speeders, not built to get through walker level armor. Repeater Blasters do that level of damage.

I would equate the M1 Abrams main gun to the AT-ATs main gun, 10D character scale, 6D walker damage, that's a serious anti walker weapon. I could probably have found a way to get to that resist level too. Not in real life but in the game rules. I'm playing a hero after all, not a goon.

Wow. Total digression there. Here, let me bring it back around.

In most groups every character has his specialty. If I was tanking against an AT-ST and threw myself in the way of one of their main cannon lasers to defend a fellow group person, how would they resist damage under your rule set? In this scenario my armored Barabel backside is theoretically fine, but the shockwave from the dissipating laser blast would cause damage to my friend.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, obviously this rule wouldn’t apply to the Barabel, since he deliberately took a direct hit. Just use the RAW and results as normal.

As for the other characters, I would say that the Barabel acted as Cover and Protection for them. 75% Cover is a 4D penalty to hit, so that is then factored into either their Dodges or the Walker’s Fire Control when calculating the damage reduction.

Of course, if you think 4D is too much, just use a lesser cover value for a smaller bonus.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I went back and watched the Hoth Battle, and I'm not convinced at all that blasters (turbo lasers) have a wide blast radius at all. There are exactly two shots in the entire battle where it could be indicated that the Walker blasters have a radius.

The first one is where a Walker fires and hits an Atgar. A rebel very near goes down. But, to be honest, he could have been just hitting the dirt because of the near miss. It's hard to tell. The shot cuts quickly, but if it hadn't, it might have shown the soldier get back up off is feet.

The second time is in a scene where the Walkers are firing into the retreating troopers on foot. One shot hits the snow, extremely close to a trooper, and that trooper goes down. He may have been grazed by the shot, too. Again, it's hard to tell.

But, there are lots of shots with near misses and Rebels on the ground where the blaster shot obviously did not have much of a blast radius.



If you think about what type of ammo a blaster fires, it may hold the key. Blaster ammo is a gas that is heated to a super-plasma state and then magnetically ejected from the barrel. The super-heated plasma is encased in a magnetic sheath that keeps the bolt's integrity.

You would think that, if the weapon does have a blast radius, then so would hand weapons, like Han's DL-44 Heavy Blaster Pistol. It's the same type of weapon on a smaller scale.

Obviously, from the movies, blaster bolts don't splash when they hit. That would create a blast radius. Evidently, the magnetic sheath keeps the bolt cohesive even when it hits.

There is kinetic energy expended when a bolt hits. That's obvious (plus, blasters have a kick--a recoil) from the movies. Damage must be done by the kinetic energy plus the extreme heat delivered by the super-heated plasma bolt.

But, it doesn't spread.

And, it doesn't look like its designed to have much of a blast radius, either. All I can think of would be the expulsion of super-heated air, for a moment, at the target point.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
It's main weapon does 8D character scale damage.


Where you getting that from? THe main rule book, and the imp source book BOTH list the chin laser of an AT-AT at 2d damage, +4d for scale, and its only 6d character damage...

Kytross wrote:
That's double human max strength. But add in armor that's +2D against energy, and a +3D personal shield generator, and now you are resisting at 9D. But most of that resistance comes from equipment. An unequiped human is going to be hurt from a chicken walker's main laser.


3d personal shield generator?? Where is that coming from?
BUT yes, with armor (most power armors can easily be 2d-3d energy, modified up to 3d+2 or even possibly 4d+2), a standard 2d human can be rolling MORE than the AT-ST's chin laser..

Kytross wrote:
I'm playing a hero after all, not a goon.


BUT can you really say a hero should be able to soak the blast of an AT-AT (6d damage for its weapons, +4d scale, and now that barbel with a force point is STILL rolling more for soak than the damage, so theoretically can take NO damage)..
Heck, lets take an A-wing's twin lasers.. 5d damage, +6d scale, and 11d character damage is what you are needing to soak. A barbel on a FP is rolling exactly the same die value BUTT Naked.. So BY the rules, a barbel could take an Awing hit and walk away scott free..??
That's more than "He's a hero" level s***..
An X-wings quad lasers are doing only 1d more.. So averaging the die, he's suffering a stun result on a direct hit..

Kytross wrote:
In this scenario my armored Barabel backside is theoretically fine, but the shockwave from the dissipating laser blast would cause damage to my friend.


In some threads where we've discussed say someone jumping on a grenade to protect everyone else, THEY become red mist (take all the blow themselves) everyone else safe..

Wajeb wrote:
If you think about what type of ammo a blaster fires, it may hold the key. Blaster ammo is a gas that is heated to a super-plasma state and then magnetically ejected from the barrel. The super-heated plasma is encased in a magnetic sheath that keeps the bolt's integrity.


But its not just blasters themselves having this issue..
What's the blast radius on a proton torp exploded in the atmosphere? Or a concussion missile?
A turbolaser which in many sources (novels) seem to have it where a full Battery can take out a city block in one shot? And in most towns/cities i have lived in a city block is an average of 60m by 60m square..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

After reading your post, I must assume you are either watching a version of ESB with the explosions edited out, or you are deliberately ignoring them because it suits your argument to do so. Even personal blaster weapons have a visible explosive effect on impact (check the escape from Cloud City, where a standard issue E11 blasts a good-sized crater in the wall).

It's basic physics that any directed energy weapon is going to transmit enough energy to cause an explosive effect. That effect will propagate outward and rapidly lose strength (and thus inflict less damage), but it will not drop off instantly or all at once. That means, the further away a character in the blast radius is from the center, the less damage they will take. When translated into injuries, this will begin with Killed, then drop to Incapacitated, Wounded, and so on. It will NOT drop instantly from Killed to unharmed.

The ONLY way this would be possible is if something contained the energy to keep it from expanding outward from the point of impact (which is clearly not the case; go back and watch the cockpit scene of Veers' AT-AT strafing the Rebel troops. Multiple explosions are visible among the runners). Even if your blaster energy sleeve theory is correct, it's pretty obvious that it dissipates on impact.

Now, I will concede that such a device (a force field projector that contains the team's energy around the point of impact) would be very useful when engaging heavily armored targets where concentrating the energy in one locale would increase the peak damage. However, aside from the logistics of projecting a containing force field across the dozens or hundreds of kilometers required, this device would be the very first thing turned OFF if the target is small, fragile and hard to hit. The goal would be to spread the energy over the greatest area of effect, in the hopes of catching the target in the blast radius.

If your premise was based around a disagreement of physics, I'd be more inclined to listen.

Unfortunately, you've made it clear from the beginning that the basis of your argument stems from this perspective:
    "Film evidence and basic physics must be ignored or reinterpreted, so that the RAW according to WEG shall remain the only accurate interpretation of the SWU."
I reject this argument entirely, to the point where even having to argue against it is extremely irritating.

It is far more realistic to assume that WEG either A) erred in making its damage rules, or B) decided to leave that level of detail to players who wanted it in their campaigns. I know which one I find more likely (read my signature).

So, in conclusion, it's obvious you have your view of how the SWU functions. I have a different view. No one is making you play by my rules, and I would have thought it obvious from the first post that, simply based on the amount of effort I've put into developing this rule, that no, I DON'T think the RAW is correct.

Bottom line, if you don't like it, take cheshire's advice and move on. Trying to convince me you're right will require a much more persuasive argument than you've presented so far.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
After reading your post, I must assume you are either watching a version of ESB with the explosions edited out, or you are deliberately ignoring them because it suits your argument to do so.


Nope. I'm watching the remastered Trilogy Collection on DVD.



Quote:
Even personal blaster weapons have a visible explosive effect on impact (check the escape from Cloud City, where a standard issue E11 blasts a good-sized crater in the wall).


That's not a blast radius. A RL gunshot will put a hole in a wall, and maybe do more damage, depending on the structure it hits, but there's no blast radius.





Quote:
If your premise was based around a disagreement of physics, I'd be more inclined to listen.


I did address kinetic energy in my post. A modern day bullet delivers kinetic energy without a blast radius.

You may not be reading my posts clearly, as I addressed this.





Quote:
It is far more realistic to assume that WEG either A) erred in making its damage rules, or B) decided to leave that level of detail to players who wanted it in their campaigns.


Can you point to some specific examples in the movies where hand blasters have a blast radius?

Let's go a step above that, too. Show many any example of a blast radius with a large blaster or turbo laser shown in the movies.



Quote:
Trying to convince me you're right will require a much more persuasive argument than you've presented so far.


I doubt 100% concrete proof would convince you.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whatever. Go be right in your own SWU; in mine, you’re wrong, and I’m not wasting any more of my time explaining it to you.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Garhkal, the AT-ST twin blaster cannon does 4D walker damage, 8D character. It also has twin light blaster cannons, 2D walker scale, and a concussion grenade launcher, 3D walker scale. I'm reading the 2E R&E core book. Am I missing something or reading it wrong? I could be missing something. I've made mistakes before, more than a few...

Quote:
3d personal shield generator?? Where is that coming from?


Sorry, that's a common home brew in the games I run/play. It's a backpack shield generator that's based on the Droideka shields. I use it so much that I forget that it's a homebrew sometimes.

Quote:
BUT can you really say a hero should be able to soak the blast of an AT-AT


A hero? Yes. Any ONE hero who focuses on soaking up damage should be able to soak up damage. Not every hero, but those who focus on it to the exclusion of other things. If that's my character concept, and I'm focusing on it with my character points and spending the credits I have earned on armor then I should be able to do it.

There were consequences for my choices, as there should be. This guy was not a hotshot pilot and was never going to be able to build a droid or a racing pod from scrap he found in a junk yard. That barabel had a 1D technical and the only skill I improved under technical at character creation was blaster repair. Or was it armor repair? Either way, I had to use character points every time I made a first aid roll, which ended up being fairly often because group members kept jumping into combat with me and not realizing they weren't built to fight the way my toon was.
I can still remember the look on my GMs face as I failed another first aid roll.

"Do you want to use another character point?"

"I already used two, I can't use anymore. And I'm running out of points."

"I'm willing to make an exception just this once."

You know, when I make a slicer character I don't try to keep up with the fighters in combat. Especially not after the first time you go to the bacta tank.

Does that make it realistic? Nope. But it's not necessarily about realism, or verisimilitude, it's about having fun while playing a game.

It's the same thing with a slicer character who maxes out his technical attribute, his computer programming skill, his slicing specialization and is equipped with a microthrust computer. You've got a starting character rolling double digit dice for slicing without character or force points. And more power to him!

To that end, clearly, when using a force point, you are bending the rules of physics for five seconds. Yes, when using a force point you can do super hero level stuff.

Should we start a new thread to discuss realism verses rule of cool?

-------------------

Wajeb, the laser blast hits something and it superheats it. Heat makes molecules expand. Superheating molecules expand rapidly in what we call an explosion. Like a potato in a microwave.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick Blast Radius Rule Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Under the RAW, accuracy is an all-or-nothing proposition. If your character is standing on the surface of a planet, and a Star Destroyer fires a turbolaser at that character, the blast will most likely completely miss the character (due to the 12D Scale modifier). In a realistic scenario, however, for something packing as much of a punch as a turbolaser, there will be secondary blast effects that will still (most likely) do enough damage to a character to injure or kill them.

I have tried multiple methods in the past to number-crunch and generate rules for large-scale weapons to have a blast radius effect, but there just ends up being too many variables.

However, I have come up with a simpler version that is much better suited to gameplay, in that it generates a quick, usable number for the characters to take damage from a weapon that, under the RAW, doesn't have a chance of touching them, but realistically should, if only because it got "close enough."

Here's the gist of it:
    -When targeting a character or group of characters with a larger scale weapon, roll To Hit as normal, with each character in the group rolling to Dodge as normal.

    -Roll Damage as normal, including Scale Modifier (regardless of whether it hit).

    -Reduce Damage by 3 for every 1 point by which it missed. The resulting Damage value will vary based on the Dodge rolled by each character.

With a 1/3 ratio, accuracy & fire control are hugely important in inflicting damage; a 1D shift either way in fire control equates to a 3D shift in damage.

This, in turn, increases the necessity of firing in barrages (coordinated fire increasing accuracy) or of precision guided weapons.

Thoughts?


I rather like it. A lot of my reference these days is novels, but in Empire's End, there's a period of orbital bombardment by some Star Destroyers. Without some AoE on them, it become impossible for that to be effective on an open field... sure, you can damage buildings, but there's going to be a spray of particles, superheated air, and improperly discharged plasma.

A tweak I might add, in this case, is that armor is doubly effective against "near misses", representing that the shot is not entirely a single blast of energy, but also includes sprayed debris, non-focused energy, and so on.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
Garhkal, the AT-ST twin blaster cannon does 4D walker damage, 8D character. It also has twin light blaster cannons, 2D walker scale, and a concussion grenade launcher, 3D walker scale. I'm reading the 2E R&E core book. Am I missing something or reading it wrong? I could be missing something. I've made mistakes before, more than a few...


No, i just kept not seeing it, as i was looking right under the foot (the pic) seeing just the laser cannon and concussion missile..
BUT even then, that's 8d damage, vs a character who even without a force point could also be rolling 8d for soak (barbel in 2d energy protection armor, easy to get a hold of).. So its 'even stevens' that there is no damage.. From just standing there and taking the blast in the chest.

Kytross wrote:
Sorry, that's a common home brew in the games I run/play. It's a backpack shield generator that's based on the Droideka shields. I use it so much that I forget that it's a homebrew sometimes.


And how heavy is the damn thing? How long does it last before running out of power?

Kytross wrote:
There were consequences for my choices, as there should be. This guy was not a hotshot pilot and was never going to be able to build a droid or a racing pod from scrap he found in a junk yard. That barabel had a 1D technical and the only skill I improved under technical at character creation was blaster repair. Or was it armor repair? Either way, I had to use character points every time I made a first aid roll, which ended up being fairly often because group members kept jumping into combat with me and not realizing they weren't built to fight the way my toon was.


And how is failing all those other rolls, making it anyway that he's ever at risk?? IF he can soak even an Xwing shooting him, it doesn't matter if he trips the alarm sending 10 troopers after him on his own..

I guess where You play for 'cartoon like heroics, I play cause i like the risk of failing..
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Quick Blast Radius Rule Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
A tweak I might add, in this case, is that armor is doubly effective against "near misses", representing that the shot is not entirely a single blast of energy, but also includes sprayed debris, non-focused energy, and so on.

How about, instead of doubling, treat the blast radius damage as Physical damage, so that most armor defends with its higher modifier, while more exotic energy-only defenses like the A3AA Personal Defense System have no effect? Doubling can get out of hand pretty quickly...
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those of you who have stated that this rule is too crunchy for your tastes have a valid point.

Here's my idea for a refinement and simplification.

Basically, rather than multiplying by 3, every point of Miss equals 1D of Damage Reduction.

Here's how it works:
    Roll the attack as normal, either against the individual characters separately or against the vehicle they are in.

    If the shot misses, convert the Miss value into dice (example: the shot misses by 3, so Damage Reduction is -3D).

    Apply the Damage Reduction modifier to the Damage dice value (including any Scale modifiers)

    If the resulting value is 0D or less, the character / vehicle is unharmed.

    If the resulting value is 1D or more, roll Damage as normal against the affected target (in the event of a group of characters with differing Dodge roll values, this can result in some characters having to soak damage while others do not).

This changes the Damage level curve slightly; tying it to dice and the D6 bell curve means a likely ratio of 1/3.5 instead of 1/3 as originally suggested. However, it is much simpler to calculate, reduces the number of rolls required and increases the randomness of artillery fire.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So its 'even stevens' that there is no damage.. From just standing there and taking the blast in the chest.


Yup. RAW. Same thing with a Wookiee in 2D armor. 9D with an Esoomian.

Quote:
And how heavy is the d*mn thing? How long does it last before running out of power?


Never really thought about it. The droideka's didn't seem to have a time limit. We've never let someone wear any other backpack or belt pack while they had it on. That restricted their ability to carry much, but this is Star Wars, encumbrance is rarely an issue. Plus, it's just energy damage resistence. In my games, people generally think their way around new stuff by their second encounter with them.

Quote:
And how is failing all those other rolls, making it anyway that he's ever at risk?? IF he can soak even an Xwing shooting him, it doesn't matter if he trips the alarm sending 10 troopers after him on his own..


First, combat isn't the only challenge. The Empire would have been victorious throughout the Original Trilogy if Artoo and Threepio weren't there and neither one of them ever fired a blaster. A good repair roll, or computer programming roll can make or break the mission.

Second, if combat is your only challenge, then there's personal combat and vehicle combat. If you maximize one you will generally have to minimize the other. All the damage resist you can stack isn't going to help you when your ship is blown out from under you. Especially if you're in space.

Third, being able to soak up damage doesn't mean you can deal out damage. The goal is to stop the threat, to defeat the enemy, not just to survive.

Fourth, combat is a big game of rock, paper, scissors. If you can't be hurt one way, you can be hurt another. Learned that from superhero games. There's gas attacks, blinding attacks, and everyone's favorite: the cumulative stun rule. That's just off the top of my head. Hit him with five stuns and the Barabel is on the ground.

Quote:
I guess where You play for 'cartoon like heroics, I play cause i like the risk of failing..


Why would you use an ad hominem argument? We're debating game theory, our motivations are irrelevant to our arguments.
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