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Gray Jedi by the rules?
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Purzelkater
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:40 am    Post subject: Gray Jedi by the rules? Reply with quote

By the rules, there is no way to play a "gray" Jedi, if I'm right. Well, inspired by the Dawn of the Jedi comics I would like to create a Jedi following the old Je'daii code:

"There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no fear, there is power.
I am the heart of the Force.
I am the revealing fire of light.
I am the mystery of darkness.
In balance with chaos and harmony,
Immortal in the Force."


The base on this code is the balance of the light and the dark side of the Force. So following this code is not just to be on the light side but also on the dark side. But on the "mordern" Jedi and the RPG there is no place for this code, I'm afraid. A character following the Je'daii code would become a NPC because of the dark side.

What do you think? Would it be possible to play this kind of char and how could this be handled by the rules?
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. I've never liked the idea of Gray Jedi. It's not what I want in my mythic Manichaeistic space opera.

2. That said, I think it will be difficult for you to balance Gray Jedi and Light side Jedi in the same campaign. Either the Gray Jedi are going to turn to the Dark Side because they use the same rules as the RAW (as you pointed out) or the Gray Jedi are going to ignore the RAW which Light Siders have to follow and so Gray Jedi will be overly dominant in power over both Light Side Jedi and Dark Siders.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree with Bren... Grey Jedi, IMO, don't work with the Rules as Written. Personally, I tend to view them as light side jedi who have rejected to Jedi Code... not falling to darkness, but not following thenstrictures of the Old Jedi. Revan and Meetra Surik might be incandescdently light side (if you play like I do), while simultaneously carrying on romances, involving themselves in politics, and even consorting with Sith, to an extent. Grey Jedi... not fallen to the Dark Side, but outside the Council's dictates.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
1. I've never liked the idea of Gray Jedi. It's not what I want in my mythic Manichaeistic space opera.

2. That said, I think it will be difficult for you to balance Gray Jedi and Light side Jedi in the same campaign. Either the Gray Jedi are going to turn to the Dark Side because they use the same rules as the RAW (as you pointed out) or the Gray Jedi are going to ignore the RAW which Light Siders have to follow and so Gray Jedi will be overly dominant in power over both Light Side Jedi and Dark Siders.


Our sparks group has a similar order, that is known as the Cryoshock brotherhood.. Or had it, we are looking to do away with it.
THe precept of them, was they had to keep their force points AND Dark side points tally in close proximity to one another, or would be out of balance.. AND if they got out of balance, they would have to roll the same 'DSP turning" roll, or fall from grace and become unplayable till some how redeemed (if at all).

IE Cliff Cryoshock had 8 force points, but only 5 dark side points. During the adventure he spends 3 force points and earns 2 dark side points, BUT cause of how he spent those force points gains 4 back, so he's now at 10FP 7DSP.. And so is 3 out of whak. He has to roll a d6 and get 3 OR more, or he turns to the darkside..
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RAW does not allow for light jedi as seen in the prequels. Yoda and Obi-Wan both use telekinesis on clones and against Count Douku, and I am sure that there are other examples. They would have accumulated plenty of dark side points.

The rules need a revamp in light of the prequels. I am sure that's been debated on this site repeatedly.

In light of the prequels I don't think there's room for Grey jedi. Qui-Gon is as grey as they come, pushing the limits of our Original Trilogy concept of what a jedi is, and he's a light side jedi.

My house rule is a combination of the 'Rules of Engagement' and 'Use of Deadly Force Ladder' police and security have to follow. The military has similar rules. Put as simply as possible, you can only use force in combat for defense of yourself or others. You can only use deadly force when your life or the life of someone else is in danger.

And yes, I find the overlap of the word force between Star Wars and real life to be amusing.

Follow those two rules in one of my games and you will never hear the dark side calling.

The classic example I use is jumpstarting your vehicle with force lightning. There's no evil or malicious intent in that.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
RAW does not allow for light jedi as seen in the prequels.
I agree. The rules need some tinkering if you want to enable the actions in the prequels, Clone Wars cartoons, etc.

Quote:
The classic example I use is jumpstarting your vehicle with force lightning. There's no evil or malicious intent in that.
I'm not comfortable with Force Lightning as a neutral action. I think the power requires tapping into anger and rage in a way that automatically connects to the Dark Side. In addition I fear that enabling the use of Force Lightning makes Jedi too much like D&D and WoW Magic Users tossing around lightning bolts.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly bren. Force lightning BY ITSELF is an inherently dark power, regardless of the intent of what you want to use it for..
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TBH, I view "Jumpstarting a vehicle with Force Lightning" to be really weird as a concept. Like, I can see an alter power (or maybe sense+alter) that works like Lightsaber combat but for Repair skills (arguably, Meetra Surik learns one in dealing with T3-M4), but jumpstarting a vehicle with force lightning seems kind of like "doing chest compressions with a burst fire weapon."
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Purzelkater
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Our sparks group has a similar order, that is known as the Cryoshock brotherhood.. Or had it, we are looking to do away with it.
THe precept of them, was they had to keep their force points AND Dark side points tally in close proximity to one another, or would be out of balance.. AND if they got out of balance, they would have to roll the same 'DSP turning" roll, or fall from grace and become unplayable till some how redeemed (if at all).

IE Cliff Cryoshock had 8 force points, but only 5 dark side points. During the adventure he spends 3 force points and earns 2 dark side points, BUT cause of how he spent those force points gains 4 back, so he's now at 10FP 7DSP.. And so is 3 out of whak. He has to roll a d6 and get 3 OR more, or he turns to the darkside..

This looks like a good approach and a good solution for my Jedi.

Maybe the way of the force could be controlled by the kind of code a force user believes? I know this concept from the L5R RPG, where the effect of the same action is based on the code the character follows.

Well, I have a question about your solution: The goal is balance. So with 7FP und 10DSP you have to get 3 or more. But is it the same if the character has 10FP and 7DSP? It's a difference of 3 too.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purzelkater wrote:
garhkal wrote:
IE Cliff Cryoshock had 8 force points, but only 5 dark side points. During the adventure he spends 3 force points and earns 2 dark side points, BUT cause of how he spent those force points gains 4 back, so he's now at 10FP 7DSP.. And so is 3 out of whak. He has to roll a d6 and get 3 OR more, or he turns to the darkside..

Well, I have a question about your solution: The goal is balance. So with 7FP und 10DSP you have to get 3 or more. But is it the same if the character has 10FP and 7DSP? It's a difference of 3 too.
His example covered this. Presumably if the total was 7 FP and 10 DSP the difference is also 3 so he needs to roll 3 or more, though garhkal should confirm that is the case.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Balancing light and dark side points, in the way described above, is going to create powerhouse characters. Instead of using one, maybe two, life points per game, your players will be able to fire them off in succession with DSPs tossed in as well. Which may be what you want.

Ironically you are creating bipolar characters. They keep balance by going from one extreme to the other. Again, this may be what you want.

Grey jedi, to me, were jedi not concerned with the strictures of the Jedi order, but still committed to being decent people. They embraced their emotions but were not controlled by them. They were characters like Corran Horn and, to a certain extent, Qui-Gon. If you haven't read "I, Jedi" I recommend it. It is no longer canon but still a great read.

If that's the kind of characters you want to play, you are going to need to revamp the rules on how the dark side works, especially DSPs
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Purzelkater
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it was not my intention to create a overpowered character. The character was a youngling at the time of order 66 and survived but traumatized. She was looking for a new truth in or faith of the force and then she has found chronicles from the old Je'daii order. Now - 15 years later - she is following the code of the Je'daii: There was always a light within darkness, and darkness within light, so that it was impossible for one to ever be truly free of either.

The Je'daii believe in 3 sides of the force: Light, Dark and Balance. Only be light or dark would bring chaos into the force, the galaxy and oneself.

As Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon said the Chosen One should bring balance to the force. And maybe I'm wrong but "balance" sounds different to "only light" to me. Wink

So yes, in this way being light and dark at the same time sounds like bipolar but I would call it balanced. Smile

But besides the philosophy of the Je'daii code I'm looking for a solution to hold a character like this on the game without rewriting all D6 rules about the force, if possible.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purzelkater wrote:
Well, it was not my intention to create a overpowered character.
I didn't think that was your intent. I think it may be an unintended consequence of trying to balance good and evil to get some zero sum equation. I'm not sure how you can balance the Dark Side and the Light Side using anything like the WEG D6 mechanics. Dark Side points are given (mostly) for doing something evil. I'm not aware of any ethical system that allows you to balance the scales by saving 1, 2, 10, or even 100 people to excuse murdering* or torturing someone just because you are angry at them.


* I use the term murdering intentionally rather than killing because in our society killing can be justified (e.g. to protect your life or that of someone else). Murder can't.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe a resource cost increase. When you use a DSP or LP it costs one of each? Doubling resource use and restricting how often your character can use points?

This is a very rough idea that will likely need refining.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Purzelkater wrote:

Well, I have a question about your solution: The goal is balance. So with 7FP und 10DSP you have to get 3 or more. But is it the same if the character has 10FP and 7DSP? It's a difference of 3 too.


Yes it is..
However looking up the rules, rather than flat out turning to the dark side, if you 'are out of balance' it triggers a special "Cryoshock brotherhood force encounter', and if you get forced out/leave the org, and still have DSPs, bang you now have to worry about turning to the darkside..
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