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Tactics Skill
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dic1
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:39 pm    Post subject: Tactics Skill Reply with quote

As written i find tactics is ambiguous, dependant on the game masters’ knowledge of units and how they work in the Star Wars universe.

As an alternative I suggest the following, the tactics skill is used to generate tactics tokens either by,

1. Straight rolls: each side rolls and receives a tactics token for every 5 points on the dice.

2. Roll opposed tactics before combat starts for every 5 points it wins by the higher roll gets a tactics token.

Possible modifiers: if only one side has tactics they automatically get a token
If only one side has an appropriate specialization e.g. ground or infantry tactics they get a bonus token.

Depending on your style of play you can place the tokens in a pool for all characters on the winning side to use, or assign them to individual characters.

Uses:
To use a token you may require the character with tactics to spend an action to “give orders”

Seize the initiative:
spend a token to automatically win initiative for the round, if both sides spend a token roll initiative as normal

Add +5 to an appropriate roll: e.g. for
Ground tactics- dodge, blaster, running, search or perception, etc.
Space / Fleet tactics- ship manoeuvre rolls, shields, gunnery
Only one token may be spent on a roll i.e. two characters may spend a token each to add +5 to their blaster roll, one player may not spend 2 tokens to add +10.

In most cases only a small number of tokens will be generated and should not have a major impact on game play.

Please provide suggestions and feedback.
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For simplicity, use Tactics instead of Perception for Initiative.

But I agree with your line of thought: I also think bonuses should be granted for a better Tactics roll.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no Tactics skill in 1E, so I don't use it. But, in other games that do use it, I do like some mechanical benefit to it.

One use that I like is to where a skill check is made, and if successful, the skill level is used as a floating modifier that other PCs (that are in communication with and directed by the character with the skill) can use during the combat situation.

That's hard to do with D6 as the rules don't use skill levels, but I mention it in case it brings other ideas.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We have had 2 other threads discussing what actual benefits Tactics could give..

Check out these two threads..

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6413&highlight=tactics

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2471&highlight=tactics
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Tactics Skill Reply with quote

dic1 wrote:
Possible modifiers: if only one side has tactics they automatically get a token
According to the rules characters without extra dice/pips in tactics should be able to roll their base Knowledge ability just like with any other Knowledge skill.

I suppose you could say that having tactics means some character has tactics above their base attribute. This would have the side effect that a character with Knowledge 2D and Tactics 3D would count for the bonus even over a character with Knowledge 4D and no extra dice/pips in Tactics even though the second character can roll 4D to make a tactics roll. That actually seems OK as a side effect to me.

I don't like the token idea. For a series of mostly idiosyncratic reasons.
    Using a token is too disconnected from what the character knows and does for me.
    We play over Skype so I can't easily use an actual token that people can see and reach out and touch.
    And finally, my table tends to have a difficult time tracking bennies. Some of them can't seem to track their Force Points and Character Points.


Whether you use tokens or something else, I favor a better tactics roll giving the entire unit that is under the tactician's command or influence a one time advantage corresponding to when the roll is made.

A roll before combat is joined could given an advantage either in initial position (if you actually track position) or could allow effects similar to an ambush e.g. everyone in the unit effected gets surprise, 1 free action, the initiative, and/or a one-time bonus die or two for the first round of combat.

A roll in the midst of combat "It's a trap!" could again give 1 free action, the initiative, and/or a one-time bonus die or two.[/list][/list]
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
There's no Tactics skill in 1E, so I don't use it.

There was Tactics in 1e. It was introduced in the very first adventure module Tatooine Manhunt (1988) which was literally the 3rd or 4th release of the game line (the 1st or 2nd after the initial core and sourcebook).
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm curious what the description of the Tactics skill was in Tatooine Manhunt 1E and how it was intended for the GM to use it.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
I'm curious what the description of the Tactics skill was in Tatooine Manhunt 1E and how it was intended for the GM to use it.

It only appears in the stat block to Adar Tallon with no description, thus being ambiguous like the OP observes about the 2e skill.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Bren wrote:
I'm curious what the description of the Tactics skill was in Tatooine Manhunt 1E and how it was intended for the GM to use it.

It only appears in the stat block to Adar Tallon with no description, thus being ambiguous like the OP observes about the 2e skill.
That doesn't help get a sense of what the designer intended by the skill does it? I remember Call of Cthulhu NPC stats often had odd skills listed that seemed more about characterizing the NPC than being a skill that would see any use in play. I wonder if that's what the designer originally had in mind? Shorthand for "hey that Adar Tallon is a military guy and a good tactician."
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
We have had 2 other threads discussing what actual benefits Tactics could give..

Check out these two threads..

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6413&highlight=tactics

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2471&highlight=tactics


And this thread dealt with an different use for Tactics skill...

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5908&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely forgot about that one for battle drills.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Tactics Skill Reply with quote

dic1 wrote:
Seize the initiative:
spend a token to automatically win initiative for the round, if both sides spend a token roll initiative as normal

Add +5 to an appropriate roll: e.g. for
Ground tactics- dodge, blaster, running, search or perception, etc.
Space / Fleet tactics- ship manoeuvre rolls, shields, gunnery
Only one token may be spent on a roll i.e. two characters may spend a token each to add +5 to their blaster roll, one player may not spend 2 tokens to add +10.

In most cases only a small number of tokens will be generated and should not have a major impact on game play.

Please provide suggestions and feedback.


I would say the initiative thing is not a good idea. First off, it's a lot of work for little gain. For example, in a round where two characters shoot at each other for 3 rounds, initiative only really matters on the very first attack. Both sides each get the same number of attacks.

To illustrate, if the character with initiative fails to injure his foe on that first round, the opposing character really has initiative from then on out.

1 PC

1 NPC - 1 PC - 1 NPC - 1 PC - 1 NPC

So, really, initiative only matters on the first attack.

Though, it works out a bit differently based on how many actions each character takes, per the SW rules. This is for simplicity to illustrate the point.



Second, if you allow a character to steal initiative during the round through use of the Tactics skill, then you are allowing the character to act back-to-back with his actions.

This will make wonky things possible--the Rule of Unintended Consequences raises its ugly head. For example, if the PC runs All Out on his turn, then he moves 40 meters before the NPC acts. If you allow the PC to steal the initiative, then the PC can actually run, All-Out for 80 meters before the NPC acts: 40 meters at the bottom of round, steal Initiative and run again, All Out, for another 40 meters. Which is kinda crazy, if you think about it.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:06 am    Post subject: Re: Tactics Skill Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:

Second, if you allow a character to steal initiative during the round through use of the Tactics skill, then you are allowing the character to act back-to-back with his actions.


IMO stealing initiative would only be via Planning it out (ie the first round of an ambush like setting AFTER the surprise round)

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
This will make wonky things possible--the Rule of Unintended Consequences raises its ugly head. For example, if the PC runs All Out on his turn, then he moves 40 meters before the NPC acts. If you allow the PC to steal the initiative, then the PC can actually run, All-Out for 80 meters before the NPC acts: 40 meters at the bottom of round, steal Initiative and run again, All Out, for another 40 meters. Which is kinda crazy, if you think about it.


Well that wouldn't happen as one can't DO ANY Other actions in a round he decides to run all-out..
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: Tactics Skill Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Well that wouldn't happen as one can't DO ANY Other actions in a round he decides to run all-out..


I was figuring as if using the Tactics skill was a free action, but if it isn't, you still have the same problem with just running normally--or, really, any other action. You'll have back-to-back actions. Last of one round, first of the next round.

Using the every other action routine the SW has really helps against this, though.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Tactics Skill Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
To illustrate, if the character with initiative fails to injure his foe on that first round, the opposing character really has initiative from then on out.
It's actually even more complicated than you postulate due to the effect of MAPs (multiple action penalties) which only accrue in a single round. If I can act before you, then you have to dodge any shot that succeeds (or risk going down) which means your shot, when you finally take it, has a lower chance to hit and might, therefore miss altogether. Whereas my shot occurs before I have to dodge so I have no MAP penalty to my shot. I could even declare multiple shots which means my second shot occurs after your first action (a dodge) which may force you to once again dodge, again preempting your chance to shoot.
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