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The Last Jedi - Thoughts and Reactions
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
The Chase...They mentioned that they wanted the fighters to pull back because they were outside of the range that the Star Destroyers could support them.
But, when you think about it...what does that even mean?
What kind of support would the Star Destroyers have to provide to a swarm of attack fighters and bombers?

I thought of that too, but I thought that might be easier to explain than the Resistance fleet supposedly being "faster".

CRMcNeill wrote:
In both circumstances, film makers took risks by breaking with a successful formula to try and tell a different sort of story within the same universe as the previous story, a pattern not followed by subsequent film makers.

For Star Wars, the issue is an order of magnitude greater, because the first two trilogies follow a similar pattern. While each film in the classic trilogy told a different story, the central theme of the underdog Rebel Alliance fighting the all-powerful Empire was a constant. The prequels, however poorly realized they may have been, told a completely different story, of a different time, and each film also told its own separate story, as well.

And now we come to the new trilogy. Where so much of what we see is a thematic rehash of the concepts and plot lines of the OT. Which would be more tolerable if didn't feel so clumsily done.

Interesting analysis. I wasn't a big fan of the Riddick or Aliens movies, but I think I did like Aliens the most out of the ones I saw. I'll reserve final judgement of the SW sequel trilogy for when it is completed, but there is no denying that so far it is a big rehash of the original films. They have recreated the Empire and Rebellion conflict, the master of a former apprentice who turned to the Dark Side, the decimation of the Jedi order, and a new young student with raw potential with the drama of which way will she go. However they seemed to have diverged somewhat with Barf Hideous' death, so now we have something akin to 'What if Vader had defeated Palpatine and become the new Emperor?'

I just read speculation today that Snoke may have Force-projected his image in the throne room like Luke did later on Crait, including projecting his severed body to make it seem he was dead. I hope this isn't true, but if it is then it better be revealed this is Darth Plagueis and that is how he made Palpatine believe he was dead. That's would also explain why the First Order is named such, that it's existence goes back to before Palpatine's New Order. I'm just saying if they are going to bring Snoke back in Episode IX then please at least tie it in to the prequels. I'd still rather he didn't come back at all though. Let it die.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Haven't read through the thread yet, just gonna put this up here to express myself. Cool

Please do read it and reply though. Cool

Naaman wrote:
I will begin by saying that I thoroughly enjoyed VII...

My biggest beef with this is the way they handled Luke... They might as well have just had him do like Kenobi did, but with an epic duel to end the movie. Net result would have been the same.

One of my biggest complaints of TLJ is no lightsaber duel. I also would have preferred an epic duel to end the movie.

Naaman wrote:
Snoke? What a waste. He was basically the Darth Maul of the new SW: his only purpose for existing in the script was to validate the main character. Defeating him didn't cost anyone anything. There was no "risk" involved when Kylo did his thing. It was a plot twist that, honestly, was way over-foreshadowed. As soon as Snoke started talking about "where I sensed weakness I now sense resolve" (but lacking the specifics on what exactly Kylo had "resolved" to do) I knew it was Snoke who was done for because of the previous conversations with Rey (and with Snoke).

...As it sits, Snoke falls dreadfully short of Palpatine (so the threat the First Order poses seems limp and un-scary)

At least Darth Maul was a cool looking warrior that dueled Jedi. Barf Hideous just sits in a chair. I think Snoke's lameness is more comparable to Dooku who was a dramatically weak villain. Dooku is set-up to be the main villain of AotC (the weakest SW film IMO), only for it to be revealed that a lower-level villain was behind the assassination attempt. Then Dooku has three very brief duels with three Jedi characters at the film's climax, only to be revealed as a servant of the phantom menace the end of the film, and to be killed off at the beginning of RotS. Snoke is even weaker than Dooku.

Naaman wrote:
Kylo falls WAY WAY WAY short of Palpatine (and Vader, but, the movie seemed to at least address that issue)

Kylo was shown to still have some good as he sensed his mother and couldn't fire on her. There is absolutely no comparison to Palpatine who was pure and utter evil incarnate. Kylo is more like Vader, but yes he falls short of Vader and the movies address that.

Naaman wrote:
The most satisfying moment for me, as an RPG nerd, was when Laura Dern jumped to lightspeed through the other ships. It reinforces my interpretation of lightspeed travel: it's just super fast travel through real space... no "hyperspace portal" or extra dimensional poppycock to try and explain or figure out.

I agree that the lightspeed kamikaze was a great moment, but it doesn't mean there is no extradimensional aspect to lightspeed travel. The purpose of hyperspace is to explain how ships cover such vast distances in such short times, and how travelers experience no noticeable time dilation. It is impossible to travel faster than the speed of light in normal space, and even traveling 99% the speed of light would require impossible amounts of energy due to relativistic mass increase, it would still take thousands of years of planetside time for ships to cross the galaxy, and the travelers would experience millions of years for the same journey. Star Wars already contains so many scientific handwaves, including the mere existence of hyperspace, the ability for hyperdrives to make "portals", and the properties of hyperspace that allow the stories to treat planets in different star systems as if they are in the same system. Removing hyperspace from the mix just destroys that handwave, requiring a much bigger one.

And besides, if ANH is in your personal Star Wars canon, then "lightspeed" and "hyperspace" are already attached at the hip. "How long before you make the jump to lightspeed? It'll take a few moments to get the coordinates from the navicomputer. Are you kidding? At the rate they're gaining? Traveling through hyperspace ain't like dustin' crops, boy!"

Naaman wrote:
Quick question: since when in the world can people breathe in space???????!!!!!! That Asian gal in the beginning... totally exposed to the vacuum of space, and she just sits there heaving and panting and stuff (yes, Leiah, too, but for obvious reasons, we can make a brief exception).

I'm pretty sure the bomber girl wasn't exposed to the vacuum of space. The bomber opening probably used an invisible energy field that held the atmosphere in but allowed the bombs to pass through. However, despite Leia being a Skywalker, I have a hard time with her exposure.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I enjoyed the movie. I left the movie feeling good about the experience.

I've been thinking a bit about a lot of the Rey gets no training criticism, and when you think about it, neither did Luke, really. He had a very short amount of time on screen with Obi-wan and maybe a day or two on Dagobah, at least from the apparent speed on film. I didn't get the feeling that he'd spent weeks or months on Dagobah training with Yoda. Rey supposedly has more raw power and talent than Luke did, so things are just clicking. I'm okay with this, as I've run games in the past with natural force talented characters just sort of figuring out how to use the force on their own. Also, she did pilfer the Jedi Texts, so she may have done some reading for a couple of extra pointers.

I did find the low speed space chase battle to be a little, eh. However, they did it to give the movie a sense of urgency, which is a pretty standard Star Wars cinematic tactic. This is just how they played it out.

I felt like the failings of the half-cocked plans by Finn and Poe failing were a direct stab at the Star Wars of the past, where many fans have complained that the tactics and plans they have are utterly ill-conceived, and yet they go off without a hitch. I think that they're setting up Finn and Poe to eventually become great resistance leaders, and as the movie stated: "Failure, the greatest teacher, is." We generally learn more from our failed endeavors than if we succeed all the time.

After watching the first trailer, I really wasn't sure that I would like what they did with Luke's character, but overall I'm pleased. He failed his students, his nephew, his sister, and his best friend with one moment of weakness, and it broke him. Yoda fought Palpatine to a stalemate and ran away to hide on Dagobah, Luke had more of a reason for going into seclusion than Yoda.

Overall, the story still felt like it was Star Wars, which to me is the most important thing. As time has gone on, I've realized that many people suffer from putting the OT on this pedestal. They're looking for something that will make them feel like they remember feeling the first time they watched these movies, and I feel like that's an unrealistic expectation to have, while looking at the past through rose-tinted glasses.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar, I'm glad you got a chance to see TLJ and enjoyed it. I think every point you make it a good one.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This deal is getting worse all the time
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After Daley and WEG and Zahn went to such great lengths to plug up many or most of the plot holes of the OT, and to lay down reasonable and consistent rules of how everything in SW works, from the Force to Hyperspace travel, it’s kind of a shame to have the recent movies so blatantly ignore them and create even bigger problems than the OT, all the while justifying it by the fact that the OT had plot holes, too. It’s a shame because, I’m convinced, when authors adhered to the rules, it led to better storytelling. The reader didn’t have to suspend disbelief so much, and there’s some enjoyment and beauty to be found in the mere existence of a well-thought-out imaginary universe (one reason Tolkien enjoys immortal popularity). Just think of how many cool plots hinged on the fact of a gravity well preventing a jump or pulling you out of hyperspace. Did TFA throw that out the window, or, do we handwave TFA? See what I mean? I guess every author can decide for himself what the rules are, and every fan has to decide for himself what parts of SW he accepts. I don’t see why rules which work for novels and games can’t work for movies, in other words, why it wouldn’t pay off in the long run to follow consistent rules.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^This.

Well put, Falconer.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falconer wrote:
After Daley and WEG and Zahn went to such great lengths to plug up many or most of the plot holes of the OT, and to lay down reasonable and consistent rules of how everything in SW works, from the Force to Hyperspace travel, it’s kind of a shame to have the recent movies so blatantly ignore them and create even bigger problems than the OT, all the while justifying it by the fact that the OT had plot holes, too. It’s a shame because, I’m convinced, when authors adhered to the rules, it led to better storytelling..


Not just that, but look at rogue one, where Cassien jumps to hyperspace INSIDE the planet's atomosphere.. A massive WTF moment..
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://twitter.com/rachlikesbands/status/955770601842585600

A collection of video clips of Rey and Kylo Ren fighting the Praetorian Guards to different music.

I like them fighting to Africa

https://twitter.com/rachlikesbands/status/955785081288880130
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That’s actually still workable if we go with the premise that the presence of too much gravity can cause a ship to go off course, increasing the chance of a blind jump or other hyperdrive mishap. WEG took a similar route when they re-did the Gravity Well rules in Wanted by Cracken, by increasing the Astrogation Difficulty based on how close you were to the center of the gravity well. Personally, I find this a nice compromise between the EU and the new films.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
This deal is getting worse all the time

Ha!

MrNexx wrote:
https://twitter.com/rachlikesbands/status/955770601842585600

A collection of video clips of Rey and Kylo Ren fighting the Praetorian Guards to different music.

I like them fighting to Africa

https://twitter.com/rachlikesbands/status/955785081288880130

That's funny! My son and I watched them both.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Naaman wrote:
Quick question: since when in the world can people breathe in space???????!!!!!! That Asian gal in the beginning... totally exposed to the vacuum of space, and she just sits there heaving and panting and stuff (yes, Leia, too, but for obvious reasons, we can make a brief exception).

I'm pretty sure the bomber girl wasn't exposed to the vacuum of space. The bomber opening probably used an invisible energy field that held the atmosphere in but allowed the bombs to pass through. However, despite Leia being a Skywalker, I have a hard time with her exposure.


Alot of people have complained about the scene with Leia being blown out into space, but people surviving brief exposure to vacuum actually is Truth in Television:
TvTropes: The Last Jedi: Reality Is Unrealistic wrote:
A lot of people criticized a scene where Leia is sucked out into the vacuum of space, uses the Force to pull herself back inside, and seems to suffer no lasting harm. NASA tests on rapid decompression to vacuum in the 1960s, however, had a 100% survival rate and full recovery for up to two minutes of exposure once the subjects were repressurized, and Leia was only out there for about one minute fifty seconds.


In light of that, Leia surviving being spaced makes much more sense. And the fact that she has to recover from a coma as a result of being exposed to vacuum just shows that space is still dangerous, even to a Force-sensitive like Leia. She might not have suffered any lasting harm per se, but she still needed time to recover, as anyone exposed to the vacuum of space would.

The truth is, we really don't know exactly what would happen to a person who got "blown out the airlock" because it's not just the lack of air that can kill you in that situation. Apparently surviving depressurization is relatively easy according to NASA's experiments if the exposure is brief enough. I'm more concerned about all the unfiltered cosmic radiation floating around outside the heliopauses of individual stars. Interstellar space is dangerous for many reasons, not just for the lack of air. If you go outside the heliopauses (basically a bubble of solar wind) that surrounds solar systems, there's a crapton of unfiltered cosmic radiation that will kill you just as surely as the lack of air will. (Fun fact: Voyager 1 passed our sun's heliopause back in August 2012 and Voyager 2 is in the outermost part of the heliosheath and will leave the solar system relatively soon.)

But then again, I wouldn't expect most Star Wars fans (or any layperson really) to say, "Hey that scene were Leia got blown out into space was unrealistic because she should have had her cells rupture from all the cosmic radiation in space!" That's something only a person with a passing familiarity with astrophysics with a (slight) tendency to talk out of his @$$ would say.

...You know, someone kinda like me. Razz

All that being said, when I first saw the scene of Leia using the Force to fly back to the airlock, the entire theatre erupted in cheers and I felt a huge sense of relief because I thought the writers would have had Leia die right there because of Carrie Fisher's passing. It was only later that the scene would become (slightly) silly to me looking back as I realized that it evoked Mary Poppins (something I mentioned in an earlier post). Still, IMO the awesomeness of the scene outweighs its silliness, espcially when you take into account the fact that people can survive exposure to vacuum; a fact that we know thanks to NASA's experiments in the 1960s.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really didn't like the movie the first time I watched. Leaving the theater I gave it a D+ to a C-. I still didn't like it the second time I watched it and the parts I disliked I found disliking even more. The third time I watched the movie I enjoyed it for the most part.

Now, having had time to process why I didn't care for it.

1. There are no truly heroic moments for anyone. I just saw Thor: Ragnarok this evening and that movie had what I would call at least 2-3 EPIC scenes int it by comparison.

2. Luke was treated like a chump and to me that is a slap in the face of everything that has been done previously. Its the purposeful deconstruction of the character the Jedi in general.

The last thing, which is what really kills this move for me:

3. There are scenes throughout this movie where it is written so that the viewer has an expectation of how the scene is going to go, but then changes it with what he thinks its a cool subversive twist. This happens over, and over, and over, add nauseum. Its a cheap trick and no, its not subversive, after a while it feels like a giant F-U to me, the fan.

Just some quick thoughts.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have an issue with Leia surviving the explosive decompression as much as her Mary Poppinsing herself while suffering from it. It seems silly to me. There are other ways that Leia could have been (1) injured (and thus taken out of the film's plot for a while) and (2) shown using the Force in this film (those two things seeming to be the scene's purpose in the plot of the film based on interviews of Rian Johnson I've read).

Falconer wrote:
After Daley and WEG and Zahn went to such great lengths to plug up many or most of the plot holes of the OT, and to lay down reasonable and consistent rules of how everything in SW works, from the Force to Hyperspace travel, it’s kind of a shame to have the recent movies so blatantly ignore them and create even bigger problems than the OT, all the while justifying it by the fact that the OT had plot holes, too. It’s a shame because, I’m convinced, when authors adhered to the rules, it led to better storytelling. The reader didn’t have to suspend disbelief so much, and there’s some enjoyment and beauty to be found in the mere existence of a well-thought-out imaginary universe (one reason Tolkien enjoys immortal popularity). Just think of how many cool plots hinged on the fact of a gravity well preventing a jump or pulling you out of hyperspace. Did TFA throw that out the window, or, do we handwave TFA? See what I mean? I guess every author can decide for himself what the rules are... I don’t see why rules which work for novels and games can’t work for movies, in other words, why it wouldn’t pay off in the long run to follow consistent rules.
CRMcNeill wrote:
^This.

Well put, Falconer.

That is an eloquent complaint about the EU being decanonized, but comparing the Star Wars franchise (or even just the EU or the current canon universe) to the Middle Earth is an unfair comparison because Middle Earth (to my knowledge) only had one single author. A more congruent comparison to Tolkien would be Lucas' personal Star Wars universe based on his six films, without the EU. (I'm not at all arguing that the Lucasverse is as equally well-thought-out as Middle Earth. My point here is single author versus multiple authors.)

Regarding "consistent rules", the problem with Falconer's statements is that the EU is inconsistent to the extreme. For every EU work that follows these WEG/Daley/Zahn rules you speak of, there are 10 EU works that violate them. Dark Empire and the Marvel comics conflicted with Zahn. Kevin J Anderson and other authors did so much damage to Daley and Zahn. Overall I have to say that EU as a whole created more plot holes with the films than it resolves. And yes, the new canon universe is not exempt from this inconsistency. It only has less inconsistencies overall by virtue of being a smaller, more recently expanding universe. Its inconsistency level is well on course to equal the EU in time.

So the consistency and rules adherence observations of the OT+EU only exist when selectively disregarding huge chunks of the EU. In essence, the complaint seems to be that Disney disregarded the EU and replaced it with something else contradictory to the OT, which seems to boil down to 'I like WEG+Daley+Zahn better than Disney SW films'. Of course there is nothing wrong with having a personal criteria for new films of being compatible with WEG, Daley and Zahn. That is your prerogative. But suggesting that the EU as a whole is more consistent than... well, anything... is quite preposterous. WEG is even inconsistent with itself and the OT in some cases. The bulk of the EU does not adhere to any consistent rules.

Falconer wrote:
every fan has to decide for himself what parts of SW he accepts.

^This. Well put, Falconer. The decanonization of the EU and the expansion of film canon into the Disneyverse don't change this at all. Neither universe is my SWU. I determine which aspects of these universes are consistent with my universe. I love TFA (and enjoy TLJ to a much lesser to degree), but at this point I do not feel much inspiration to incorporate aspects of the sequel trilogy into my SWU.
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’ll try to restate my points.

#1 is that just because the OT had flaws is no excuse to keep going on making movies with those kinds of flaws. This point is not about the EU per se; it’s about the fact that any time anyone refers to a flaw in the OT, someone is bound to chime in with how it was explained or rationalized by the radio dramas (TIE-fighter sounds in space), or in the roleplaying game (Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs), or in Zahn’s novels (.5 past light speed). Of course, all these sources are technically LEGENDS now in and of themselves, but, of course they kept a ton of basic lore from WEG, etc., after the reboot.

#2 is that WHEN the best EU authors like Zahn, Stackpole, and Allston followed the WEG rules, it resulted in many awesome story opportunities. Again, I’m not saying they should have kept the EU intact.

We love the OT despite its flaws, not because of them. Maybe someone who doesn’t care too deeply simply doesn’t mind the flaws or doesn’t notice them; but for someone who wants to really immerse themselves in the universe on a deeper level (i.e., if you are the type of reader who reads Tolkien’s LotR Appendices or even HoMe), the fixes make it possible. So, the fixes make the OT better. I think it’s fair to criticize any work—Disney or Legends, movie or book—that exhibits similar flaws and justifies them on the basis that the OT had flaws. Zahn’s novels at their best made the universe feel deep and consistent, BUT they still captured that light, breezy sense of adventure on the grand space opera scale.
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