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The Last Jedi - Thoughts and Reactions
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I saw TLJ again today, my fifth (and final) time in the theater. Unfortunately it didn't help me appreciate the film anymore.

Falconer wrote:
#1 is that just because the OT had flaws is no excuse to keep going on making movies with those kinds of flaws. This point is not about the EU per se; it’s about the fact that any time anyone refers to a flaw in the OT, someone is bound to chime in with how it was explained or rationalized by the radio dramas (TIE-fighter sounds in space), or in the roleplaying game (Kessel run in less than 12 parsecs), or in Zahn’s novels (.5 past light speed). Of course, all these sources are technically LEGENDS now in and of themselves, but, of course they kept a ton of basic lore from WEG, etc., after the reboot.

#2 is that WHEN the best EU authors like Zahn, Stackpole, and Allston followed the WEG rules, it resulted in many awesome story opportunities. Again, I’m not saying they should have kept the EU intact.

We love the OT despite its flaws, not because of them. Maybe someone who doesn’t care too deeply simply doesn’t mind the flaws or doesn’t notice them; but for someone who wants to really immerse themselves in the universe on a deeper level (i.e., if you are the type of reader who reads Tolkien’s LotR Appendices or even HoMe), the fixes make it possible. So, the fixes make the OT better. I think it’s fair to criticize any work—Disney or Legends, movie or book—that exhibits similar flaws and justifies them on the basis that the OT had flaws.

I was not aware that the creators of the Disney films have justified their flaws merely by pointing out that the OT had flaws too, so continued movie flaws should just be allowed. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but I'd really appreciate some sources for those statements. It's unbelievable to me that they would ever admit that if it was true.

Your point seems to be all these films have flaws, and only some of the best EU sources had fixes to the OT flaws, and now that the new canon universe has contradicted those EU sources, the fixes are gone for the OT films in the canon universe. (To me that smacks close to 'X ruined my childhood'.) So instead of letting these contradictions affect your appreciation of the classic films, you choose to disregard the new films and keep the best EU sources in your SWU to allow the fixes to keep the OT better. I do not at all think any less of you for rejecting the new films (and perhaps the entire current canon universes outside of the OT) in favor of OT+Zahn+Stackpole+Allston+Daley. Hey, whatever works for you.

I personally think it is possible for their to be other fixes besides those best-of-the-EU fixes that can incorporate the new films too, but I wouldn't be the best one to lead the charge on that mission in light of my reactions to TLJ. I can only say that I do not have some of the objections to TLJ that others have because there are easy fixes available in my view, but I can't say I have explanations for everything. (Conversely, it also seems evident that I have issues with some things that no one else has.) I'll revisit this after the sequel trilogy is complete, but as a SW GM I still have no interest in taking my game to the sequel trilogy setting.

Falconer wrote:
Zahn’s novels at their best made the universe feel deep and consistent, BUT they still captured that light, breezy sense of adventure on the grand space opera scale.

I don't disagree with that. But for me, Zahn is a mixed bag. Outbound Flight was bad. Zahn portrayed C'baoth as someone who could cross over to the Dark Side, but it defied all logic of how he could have been a Jedi Master in the first place. He's an all-out dillhole. Allegiance didn't do anything to help the OT. I didn't like that one either. Spectre of the Past was so boring I couldn't finish it.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really hope the Master Codebreaker wasn’t inserted strictly as an homage to Indiana Jones...
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, Zahn was a LOT better than most of the other authors for the EU..
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Falconer
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill, your assessment of my argument is essentially accurate, both in your pro and con points, though I think to call it a ruined childhood argument is a bit unkind. I was trying to make the case that the Sequel Trilogy could have improved its “science” by learning from the good and the bad the 80s and 90s. But, that’s just one priority among many possible points and considerations that could be made about it. It’s not the final verdict.

For what it’s worth, I didn’t really read hardly any EU till after TFA came out. I actually love TFA. Perhaps ironically, it awakened my desire for some straightforward Luke-Han-Leia stories, which is what forced me to finally crack open Zahn.

Basically, in my current head canon, the main stories of the saga are:
  1. Star Wars - Empire Strikes Back - Return of the Jedi
  2. Heir to the Empire - Dark Force Rising - Last Command
  3. Specter of the Past - Vision of the Future
  4. The Force Awakens
It’s not an entirely consistent continuity, but, in the general sweep of things, it’s a satisfying arc, for me. We get to see the characters learn and grow and triumph, with a little ouroboros turn at the end to keep the whole thing nicely mythical. Until recently, I wouldn’t have said I choose Legends over Canon, per se—it was honestly more like Canon with some “good stuff” shoehorned back in. But at this point, if pressed, I would probably agree that I default to Legends.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Your point seems to be all these films have flaws, and only some of the best EU sources had fixes to the OT flaws, and now that the new canon universe has contradicted those EU sources, the fixes are gone for the OT films in the canon universe. (To me that smacks close to 'X ruined my childhood'.)
Falconer wrote:
Whill, your assessment of my argument is essentially accurate, both in your pro and con points, though I think to call it a ruined childhood argument is a bit unkind. I was trying to make the case that the Sequel Trilogy could have improved its “science” by learning from the good and the bad the 80s and 90s. But, that’s just one priority among many possible points and considerations that could be made about it. It’s not the final verdict.

For what it’s worth, I didn’t really read hardly any EU till after TFA came out. I actually love TFA. Perhaps ironically, it awakened my desire for some straightforward Luke-Han-Leia stories, which is what forced me to finally crack open Zahn.

I'm sorry. I do not see what you are saying as the ruined childhood lament. But fans expressing displeasure of post-classic films while lauding Zahn/EU as superior is an all too common phenomena I have experienced since 1999, and the raped childhood lament is often not far behind. "How dare Lucas not have the Empire begin 35 years before ANH? How dare Lucas contradict Boba Fett's EU backstory? How dare Lucas imply that Imperial stormtroopers are clones? How dare Disney decanonize the Thrawn Trilogy? How dare Jacen, Jaina and Anakin Solo no longer exist? How dare Chewbacca not be dead?" ...ad nauseam. Understanding your view better, my main objection was just to the seeming categorical rejection of anything that contradicts Zahn and the idea the EU is the only source of fixes to the class trilogy. I appreciate your further confirmations and clarifications.

Falconer wrote:
Basically, in my current head canon, the main stories of the saga are:
  1. Star Wars - Empire Strikes Back - Return of the Jedi
  2. Heir to the Empire - Dark Force Rising - Last Command
  3. Specter of the Past - Vision of the Future
  4. The Force Awakens
It’s not an entirely consistent continuity, but, in the general sweep of things, it’s a satisfying arc, for me. We get to see the characters learn and grow and triumph, with a little ouroboros turn at the end to keep the whole thing nicely mythical.

Cool. We disagree on the prequels, but probably aren't too far off on the other films. My personal post-RotJ canon is undecided. It will definitely be after Episode IX comes out before I would get into that era in my game, but it is certainly possible that The Thrawn Trilogy will exist in some form. I'd really like to hear your take on Zahn's classic-era novel Allegiance which features Luke, Han, Leia and Mara Jade.

Falconer wrote:
Until recently, I wouldn’t have said I choose Legends over Canon, per se—it was honestly more like Canon with some “good stuff” shoehorned back in. But at this point, if pressed, I would probably agree that I default to Legends.

I refuse to make that choice. My SWU takes aspects of both Legends and Canon, and rejects aspects of both.
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Falconer
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I saw the movie last night. I’m still kind of numb from it all. It was very long, and it was a lot of action. I don’t know if it was the pacing, or the dialogue, or just the fact that there were too many characters, but it just felt like a string of surprise cameos (Leia, Snoke, Luke, Phasma?!, all three droids and Chewbacca seemed to disappear from the movie for great lengths of time and return at critical moments; it was just overdone). What TFA pulled off really well was that you cared about the characters, you understood the characters, you rooted for them, you laughed at them and cried with them, their hopes and dreams were relatable. I didn’t come out of TLJ with anything like that. It just didn’t flow naturally from what came before.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://twitter.com/patrickhwillems/status/959204374047350789

A twitter thread of reactions
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
https://twitter.com/patrickhwillems/status/959204374047350789

A twitter thread of reactions

...reactions to TESB. That's rich! Reminded me of Bill Coffin's Fb post along the same lines. The classic movies are clearly not held to the same standards as modern SW films.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry, but some of the sarcasm is a bit too over the top. There is, for example, a substantive difference between a human being surviving in vacuum and a giant alien creature existing in vacuum. Granted, I agree that some of the criticism of TLJ has displayed an ignorance of precedent in the SWU. I'm okay with a lot of things that people have complained about in the film; my objections have more to do with poor plotting, shallow characterization and a lack of regard (willing or otherwise) for established universe fact (travel times are my particular gripe, but I'm not going to rehash that here).
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two words: SPACE OPERA.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Two words: SPACE OPERA.

To quote Mr. Nexx...
Quote:
It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude... seeming to be true within the context of [Star Wars]

Even within Space Opera, the characters in-universe perceive it as realistic, obeying the rules of that universe. The Star Wars universe has a long-established set of rules that define "real" in that universe. The new films have essentially discarded those rules for no better reason than to not place limits on the directors. Those "real-in-context" rules are essential to maintaining the feel of the universe, even in Space Opera.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
https://twitter.com/patrickhwillems/status/959204374047350789

A twitter thread of reactions

...reactions to TESB. That's rich! Reminded me of Bill Coffin's Fb post along the same lines. The classic movies are clearly not held to the same standards as modern SW films.

Here's a version for RotJ. After getting the title card, click the right arrow for the next two slides.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Two words: SPACE OPERA.

To quote Mr. Nexx...
Quote:
It isn't realism, it's verisimilitude... seeming to be true within the context of [Star Wars]

Even within Space Opera, the characters in-universe perceive it as realistic, obeying the rules of that universe. The Star Wars universe has a long-established set of rules that define "real" in that universe. The new films have essentially discarded those rules for no better reason than to not place limits on the directors. Those "real-in-context" rules are essential to maintaining the feel of the universe, even in Space Opera.


Though, I'd point out that space in Star Wars does behave a bit oddly... like aforementioned space slugs having an internal, nearly 1atm pressure, atmosphere (comfortable in a breath mask and not-particularly special clothes)
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If that were true, Solo would've known right away that they weren't inside a normal asteroid. He may not have known much about space slugs, but a starship pilot is going to know space and space phenomena relatively well. My explanation has long been that it was an extension of the Falcon's shields, capable of maintaining a minimal atmosphere in the area immediately surrounding the ship (subject to limitations, like the ship having to be landed, and characters outside needing breath masks).
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get that those are your explanations, but it isn't internally explained, or even seen as unusual. Without at least hanging a lantern on it, the movies are treating space a bit weird.
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