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Potential MAX Attributes?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:48 pm    Post subject: Potential MAX Attributes? Reply with quote

What is the MAX you can raise an attribute after character creation.

Going by scources we can argue at least +1D, with the Human racial MAX on character creation being 4D and the royal guards being at a 5D DEX.

So what is the absolute max an attribute can be raised to?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Technically there is none. BY the RAW, one just needs to spend the XP, and if the stat's above racial max, you roll off.. If the roll off fails, you don't get the boost, and half the XP still got spent.
If you make the roll, it increases 1 pip.. So with enough time, CP and good rolls, one could theoretically raise any attribute to 6d or even higher.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So basically, with enough CPs spent and enough rolls passed, you can actually roll vs a deathstar shot to your chest and simply brush it off as a fair attempt by the imps, who this time seems to be upping thir efforts.


But to be a littlebit more serious, I can see how this is not the bigggest issue with the x10 cost to raise attributes, however I do think there should be a max, and I would suggest this to +1D above the racial max, meaning a wookie can have 7D strength....OMG whan that wookie rages.

A human can have 5D as a total potential maximum, much in the "tone" of how the rpyal guards are described, thei move and fight with an almost unnatural speed, making me thing they have reaced the absolute potential maximum for the species, in this case 5D.


So I want to see if any one out there have made any cieling for attibute increases, I personally have a cap at +1D above race "max"
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you pay attention to Crimson Empire in your lore, the Royal Guards are all clones, their 5D dexterity can be explained through genetic engineering or clone vat enhancements from the fanmade Medical Guide.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
If you pay attention to Crimson Empire in your lore, the Royal Guards are all clones, their 5D dexterity can be explained through genetic engineering or clone vat enhancements from the fanmade Medical Guide.


While this is true regarding the Crimson empire, where according to the story all but two guards were killed this makes sense.

However if we look to the imperial scoursebookand the royal guard stats there we still see 5D dex and these are NOT all clones, in fact most if not all are non clones.

again it makes me wonder what is the actual maximum you can have. I would argue maybe 1D above the racial maximum is reasonable, after all with 5D strenght, you can take most balster bolts to the chest and carry on fighting like nothin.

lets say you roll your 5D vs 3D+2 then you really have anedge, now if you kep up increasing this you would take a shot from a speeder, maybea fighter and still walk tall. so IMO there has to be a maimum somewhere.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would say: +1D+2 to keep it in line with maximum gear modifications. I would be tempted to say that characters can only improve any attribute by only +1D+2, meaning if you min/max at character creation, you could be stuck with an attribute below species max.

To be honest? I've never had a character abuse the attribute raise system. I've only seen 1 or 2 characters raise an attribute, and that was usually raising a 2D+2 to 3D.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could see a few professions that might justify an across-the-board increase in an Attribute. Military recruits, for example, would be justified in a +1 or +2 to their Dexterity and Strength Attributes to represent the broad scope of training they receive: weapons, close combat, climbing, swimming, distance running, obstacle courses, etc.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I could see a few professions that might justify an across-the-board increase in an Attribute. Military recruits, for example, would be justified in a +1 or +2 to their Dexterity and Strength Attributes to represent the broad scope of training they receive: weapons, close combat, climbing, swimming, distance running, obstacle courses, etc.



Thhis si my take on this too, however I run into an issue when a character already have 4D in eithher of thhe attributes, and that this is listed as a species MAX, while I see it as a species "Starting max" with an +XD final cap, in this way I can include military training, royal guards and others with more than 4D in an attibute for a human.

I would even go as far as arguing that if you already have 4D in dex and Strenght, you will still gain benefits form phhysical training, and yes can see this even going above the listed "max"

So is this a max, or a starting max?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in favor of open-ended systems, so I don't really see a problem with the RAW w/r/t improving an Attribute. Off the top of my head, there are only two changes I would make:
    1) Once the character hits their Species Maximum for that Attribute, all subsequent costs (CP and Training Time) double.

    2) On a Failed Max-Limit Roll (player vs. GM), the player may spend a FP to add an additional 1D to their Attribute roll and attempt to overturn the result, but this is not considered heroic use, and the Force Point is lost.

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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'm in favor of open-ended systems, so I don't really see a problem with the RAW w/r/t improving an Attribute. Off the top of my head, there are only two changes I would make:
    1) Once the character hits their Species Maximum for that Attribute, all subsequent costs (CP and Training Time) double.

    2) On a Failed Max-Limit Roll (player vs. GM), the player may spend a FP to add an additional 1D to their Attribute roll and attempt to overturn the result, but this is not considered heroic use, and the Force Point is lost.




I like this.


I do however wonder how we should look to advancement both in skills and attribute. if we take the 3-5CP awarded for each "mission" and then think that by raw the royal guards, hand picked for their abilities, we can argue they have a average 2D Attribute Span on most attributes, as we see in the write up, this to me adds up to quite a lot of CP, in fact so many CP that I would deem it impossible for a player character to ever come near.

Now if then look to the "heroes" and the "suoerior comapred to the average" tat the player characters is supposed to emulate, I find it strange how some things are decided, like the force .
In almost all writeups given in scoursebooks, even a lowly padawan has 18Dice + Force, making them wastly superior to the heroes.

If we then look at a "fully trained" by name Jdi template we find them at 15 Attribute dice, not 15+ as 99/100 write ups.

This makes me wonder should the general awards be raised to 10-15 cp pr mission, since we again see children with higher stats, higher skill lvels, and more accumulated CPs than any player character can ever accumulate.

so to me the question is still what should be the max in any one attribute, 50D 100D, now I can't see that anyone will ever get that much CPs, but given that PCs and especially force using PCs are by default handicapped by 1-3D attibute dice I am thinking that maybe for any camapaig meant to span more one mission, a new reward system should be in place.

Even look to official and semi official writeups on some of the imp officers, we have some with a ton of Advance skills, and these are at a higher cost to increase. etc etc.

I really think maybe the reward system is the key here, with leaving the cap at basically whatever you want, though you have to pay for it, and I think once you get above the listed MAX you should as you suggested pay double the cost, simply to balance things out.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
So basically, with enough CPs spent and enough rolls passed, you can actually roll vs a deathstar shot to your chest and simply brush it off as a fair attempt by the imps, who this time seems to be upping thir efforts.


Technically yea, but logic has to come into it.. I don't care HOW powerful someone is, STANDING ON a planet when it blows up, YOU WILL DIE!!!!

Raven Redstar wrote:
I would say: +1D+2 to keep it in line with maximum gear modifications. I would be tempted to say that characters can only improve any attribute by only +1D+2, meaning if you min/max at character creation, you could be stuck with an attribute below species max.


That sounds like a good call Raven.

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'm in favor of open-ended systems, so I don't really see a problem with the RAW w/r/t improving an Attribute. Off the top of my head, there are only two changes I would make:
    1) Once the character hits their Species Maximum for that Attribute, all subsequent costs (CP and Training Time) double.

    2) On a Failed Max-Limit Roll (player vs. GM), the player may spend a FP to add an additional 1D to their Attribute roll and attempt to overturn the result, but this is not considered heroic use, and the Force Point is lost.


How's about if you fail that roll, you can't increase that attribute again?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would maybe say that on a failed roll you can now only raise the attribute to a max +2 and not a full +1D. naturally you can then not raise this further.

if you then fail again the possible MAX for this attrbute is now "only" +1

I raise my 4D to 4D+1 but I fail on the roll.
I can still increase this attribute, but no more than to 4D+2
I make another attempt later and fail again, and now I can only raise the attribute to a 4D+1 capped.
I make the final roll when I can afford it and I suceed, I have now raised my 4D to 4D+1 but since I failed on the two previous attempts I can never ever raise this more.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since I tend towards less punitive gaming, I would probably enact CR's Force point rule, but I would also tend towards "If you fail to increase your attribute, half the CP are returned, but the other half are put into attribute-relevant skills."

So, if I'm trying to improve my 2D Dexterity, I'm going to be spending 20 CPs. If I fail, I get 10 CPs back, and the other 10 go into Dexterity skills. I figure, to improve an attribute, you were probably practicing a number of attribute-related skills, and failure to improve the attribute indicates that things just didn't gel for you into the full improvement, but you still learned SOMETHING out of the process... you may not have improved your Dexterity, but all that running and dancing and target practice (the kinds of things you might do to train Dexterity) at least helped a bit.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see where you're getting that. Attributes are raised 1 pip at a time, just like Skills. The failed roll, as per the RAW, simply means that your Attribute isn't raised at all, and you lose half of the CP cost.

EDIT: @Mamatried
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Last edited by CRMcNeill on Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I don't see where you're getting that. Attributes are raised 1 pip at a time, just like Skills. The failed roll, as per the RAW, simply means that your Attribute isn't raised at all, and you lose half of the CP cost.


Yes, but how do you train an attribute? What are you doing to, say, increase your Strength or Perception? Does increasing your Strength look like the montage of a Rocky movie? Does increasing your Knowledge look like a montage in a college movie? If you fail to actually increase your attribute, did you still spend time exercising or studying?

My version is designed to be less punitive than the core rules; none of your CP go up in smoke, they just don't manifest as a full attribute pip. If I'm trying to improve my Strength from a 2D to a 2D+1, I'm going to spend time running long distances, lifting weights, punching sides of beef, and hitting the climbing wall and pool at the gym.... all the kinds of things that will improve my Strength attribute, but would also represent an increase in Strength Skills.

To even TRY to improve my Strength, I need to save up 20 CPs (i.e. "number before the D times ten). When I spend 20 CPs and 20 weeks training, and fail to increase my attribute, I don't think "Well, you still wasted 20 weeks, but you get back 10 of those CPs, and the other 10 go onto skills related to that attribute" is that game-breaking.

I am intentionally rewriting the rules because the rules are kind of bantha poodoo.
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Last edited by MrNexx on Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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