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Full dodge on multi-crew ships?
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Jollyone
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:47 pm    Post subject: Full dodge on multi-crew ships? Reply with quote

Pilot in transport declares full dodge. You stack the roll on difficulty for new number enemy needs to roll to hit the ship. What about rest of crew? Full use of skills? Shoot? Shields? Sensor? On a capital ship? pilot does same? is this even possible in capital ship? Been reading a lot of posts and may of been covered, new to site.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For ME, yes i assign the same mods to those in the ship shooting back out of it, as well as the enemy SHOOTING teh ship for freighters/fighters. Caps imo are too large though. For sensors/shields, no there shouldn't be a mod from going full dodge..
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Jollyone
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you!! Seems like a good call with shooting out of ship.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Generally speaking, I don't even allow capitol ships to "dodge." Not even against each other. It's just not how capitol ships are portrayed in the films, which is the basis for the rules in the first place. The capitol ship piloting skill is almost useless, IMO, since the ship is designed to just show up and shoot stuff and remain relatively still compared to the rest of the battle going on (the capitol ships basically become the "terrain" of the battle field).

If the pilot declares a full dodge, it makes sense to me that the gunners (at least) aren't able to effectively engage any threats since the maneuver is (presumably) wild and/or desperate enough that it dramatically affects the relative positioning of the pursuing ships. On the other hand, I could see in some cases allowing the gunner to shoot but without the benefit of fire control (and possibly having a penalty on top of that).
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Generally speaking, I don't even allow capitol ships to "dodge." Not even against each other. It's just not how capitol ships are portrayed in the films, which is the basis for the rules in the first place. The capitol ship piloting skill is almost useless, IMO, since the ship is designed to just show up and shoot stuff and remain relatively still compared to the rest of the battle going on (the capitol ships basically become the "terrain" of the battle field).

Except for very small capital ships, that described about all uses of them in my game over the past 30 years.

Naaman wrote:
If the pilot declares a full dodge, it makes sense to me that the gunners (at least) aren't able to effectively engage any threats since the maneuver is (presumably) wild and/or desperate enough that it dramatically affects the relative positioning of the pursuing ships. On the other hand, I could see in some cases allowing the gunner to shoot but without the benefit of fire control (and possibly having a penalty on top of that).

I'm thinking keep fire control and just add the pilot's full evasion roll to the difficulty of the gunner. The better the evasion, the more wild and crazy the maneuver is so the harder it is to target enemies.
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Jollyone
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting, I look at it as more like WWII for all of Star Wars. The Starfighter scale are planes, transports are big cargo planes or very small boats thinking PT 109 size, capital are ships. I would think most ships did an anti-torpedo dance and they did frequent changes of direction while using main guns on other ships. Maybe to much time on History channel type gun cameras and old footage.

I have not done a capital engagement for my boys, other than they ran/jumped away. Have done some as a player in a short-lived Far Star type campaign but I think he was using new FFG rules? I have done some theory hammer stuff for few decades, the reason I am here to share those thoughts, just wish I had found this site earlier.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So are you saying that capitol ships ought to be able to maneuver during combat? By my estimation, this would further amplify the relative lack of speed and agility of a capitol ship:

For every change of direction that a capitol ship makes, a starfighter (or enemy capitol ship gunner) can re-orient and "lock on" 5 or 10 or 20 times (or more, in my guess).

Since RPGs are all about relative ability (that is, it makes little difference in the end whether a roll gets a -2 penalty or the difficulty is increased by +2, for example), and capitol ships are the lumbering giants that appear to be sitting still when looking at the "big picture" of the battle, it feels awkward to have a ship that requires multiple crew members to pilot it being able to "dodge" a shot from a ship that can literally fly circles around it all day long.

Now, on the other hand, if range is a consideration (such as in the recent film), then it makes sense that the ships should be able to relocate relative to each other, effectively changing the "map" of the battle. In such cases, I still probably wouldn't require a roll unless one capitol ship needed to maneuver around another one or some such (everyone else better get out of the way or else...). Also, if one capitol ship is ramming another, that would be a good scenario for piloting checks, but, I'm still not seeing much need for an opposed capitol ship piloting roll. If a ram attempt is detected early enough by the targeted pilot, he may get a chance to reorient to minimize damage, but I generally see it as "brace for impact!!!!" while the pilot attempts to protect the more crucial parts of the ship with a maneuver.

What kind of combat scenario do you envision a capitol ship needing (or getting) to make an opposed piloting roll?

Also, garhkal may have some insight on this, so you may want to pick his brain.
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Bren
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
What kind of combat scenario do you envision a capitol ship needing (or getting) to make an opposed piloting roll?
In the handful of capital ship engagements I ran back in the day I believe I used opposed capital ship piloting rolls as an abstract way of determining advantageous positioning between the two ships.

    1. Which angle or shield(s) on the target ship can be attacked?

    2. Which weapon arcs on the attacking ship can fire e.g. forward, left, rear, etc?

We did something similar with opposed starfighter piloting rolls. A failed roll usually meant that you couldn't fire this run as you were still maneuvering for a shot.
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Jollyone
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
So are you saying that capitol ships ought to be able to maneuver during combat? By my estimation, this would further amplify the relative lack of speed and agility of a capital ship:



I ask about transports in the original question. I did add in about capitol at the end just for completeness. I can see some arguments for both ways on bigger ships. As for speed I think some of the larger ships are faster than most all but modified transports. A few are as fast as some rebel starfighters, as in space 6 is common. There are a few in the 8 range and I think some patrol in 100-150m range that move 9. Maneuver is not as clear, most are 1D few hit the 2D range.

So as you frame it then how does a YT-1300 with worse speed and maneuver dodge? Not trying to incite just asking. I have both my sons in the bounty hunter turtle special, as in the Gothric 720 I think it is. I will make the turtle take a hit to gunnery as per what the pilot rolls for full dodge as that is sound I think, wish I would of thought of it as it is simple to explain and makes sense.

As per speed, scale and few other parts. I have read quite a bit on this site but still am very new. Is there place where some discussion on sensors? Thanks for input and like hearing what others have done. At this point run from capitol ship will what I will continue to do.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One possibility is that it isn't just crew coordination, but rather a matter of power and system allocation. For example, a ship flying at All-Out may need to divert power from other systems to the engines to achieve that level of thrust. A ship executing a full dodge may need to divert power from weapons to the lateral controls to be able to maneuver rapidly, and so on and so forth.

Battlefleet Gothic does just this for larger ships by using Special Orders. A ship captain may make a Command roll to maximize his ship's ability to perform specific tasks, at the expense of others.
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Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Jollyone
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
One possibility is that it isn't just crew coordination, but rather a matter of power and system allocation. For example, a ship flying at All-Out may need to divert power from other systems to the engines to achieve that level of thrust. A ship executing a full dodge may need to divert power from weapons to the lateral controls to be able to maneuver rapidly, and so on and so forth.

Battlefleet Gothic does just this for larger ships by using Special Orders. A ship captain may make a Command roll to maximize his ship's ability to perform specific tasks, at the expense of others.


I don't know those rules, sounds like a nice take. I have seen some people play Armada I think? at the local game store and I know the big ships in it do some command stuff and some other type of dodge/damage mitigation. Sorry if I have the rule wrong or game, just what I have seen on tables. I like my D6 for simple fun to roll play out and try not to go to much into rule lawyer or never ever cant be done. I like the fact that my boys adore the Star Wars universe, hope to learn more.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not too familiar with the Armada system, although Battlefleet Gothic did publish a supplement called Armada, detailing the navies of the various alien races of the WH40K universe.

As far as special orders, the six official ones are All Ahead Full, Come to New Heading, Burn Retros, Lock On, Brace for Impact and Reload Ordnance.

Reload Ordnance was mainly for capital ships equipped with fighter wings or torpedoes (which were the size of starfighters), but the others are pretty self explanatory. The BIG rules don't translate well into D6, but the concept is there.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jollyone wrote:
As for speed I think some of the larger ships are faster than most all but modified transports. A few are as fast as some rebel starfighters, as in space 6 is common. There are a few in the 8 range and I think some patrol in 100-150m range that move 9. Maneuver is not as clear, most are 1D few hit the 2D range.

So as you frame it then how does a YT-1300 with worse speed and maneuver dodge? Not trying to incite just asking.


That is a good question, WHy say can a stock Ghtroc, who has just as poor a maneuverabilty as several ISD size ships and is SLOWER to boot get a full dodge while those larger ships cant? I honestly don't know the answer.
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Jollyone
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had a thought on the scale part that might help. The +10 Frigate can benefit from dodge? +12 Destroyer cannot?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jollyone wrote:
Naaman wrote:
So are you saying that capitol ships ought to be able to maneuver during combat? By my estimation, this would further amplify the relative lack of speed and agility of a capital ship:



I ask about transports in the original question. I did add in about capitol at the end just for completeness. I can see some arguments for both ways on bigger ships. As for speed I think some of the larger ships are faster than most all but modified transports. A few are as fast as some rebel starfighters, as in space 6 is common. There are a few in the 8 range and I think some patrol in 100-150m range that move 9. Maneuver is not as clear, most are 1D few hit the 2D range.

So as you frame it then how does a YT-1300 with worse speed and maneuver dodge? Not trying to incite just asking. I have both my sons in the bounty hunter turtle special, as in the Gothric 720 I think it is. I will make the turtle take a hit to gunnery as per what the pilot rolls for full dodge as that is sound I think, wish I would of thought of it as it is simple to explain and makes sense.

As per speed, scale and few other parts. I have read quite a bit on this site but still am very new. Is there place where some discussion on sensors? Thanks for input and like hearing what others have done. At this point run from capitol ship will what I will continue to do.


Ah, I see. I miss understood what you were asking about. I thought you were talking about capitol ships only. IMO, transports/freighters, etc, are the same scale as a starfighter, so they compete at the same level (they have their pros and cons all worked out within the same scale group).
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