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My House Rules
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Optional rule: One offensive and one defensive move per round with no MAP penalty. This applies to NPCs as well as PCs. Multiple Actions Penalties start after that.

I use this rule when I have a group of new players so they can dodge and shoot in the same round without having to subtract dice from their skill pools.

I don't know why this makes the game run smoother with new folks, but it does.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Yeah, D6 is really hard on Jedi. It's kinda frustrating at times.


And that's cause the game was made on the premise that you would be in a Rise of the Empire/rebellion time frame, where jedi WERE hunted to almost extinction, so being a jedi and having it hard, went hand in hand..

Krytoss wrote:
When I see the skill levels of the Jedi in the movies it seems obvious to me that they are very advanced characters.


Just like i've had a few players who wanted to be pilots, or slicers but realized no starting character would be as good as their favorite novel character..

Naaman wrote:
It is my opinion that a starting Jedi should reasonably be able to do everything that is basic to being a Jedi:

Deflect blaster bolts (and very soon after starting, redirect them... at least once per round with a reasonable degree of success)

Levitate objects (start small, like, a lightsaber or a wooden chair or a fist sized rock, etc).

Be more dangerous in melee combat than other starting characters of similar species (i.e. a human with a vibro blade should be less of a threat than a Jedi human with a lightsaber, all other things being equal, with the caveat that the lightsaber still has a difficulty of 20 to hit at all regardless of the target's reaction roll).


But then you get into the issue of jedi becoming overpowering once they hit say 6d in all force stats..
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Whill
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Starting force skill dice should come out of the 7 skill dice, not the 18 attribute dice. If that were RAW, then I'd be totally on board with everything else, RAW (except maybe lightsaber damage).

I use a Force attribute. The Force attribute only has two normal skills, Sense and Control, but they both default to The Force attribute. Alter is an advanced skill with perquisites in Control and Sense. In char gen up to 2D in skill dice can be allocated to each Force skill as per RAW. So in my game a PC could start with all three Force skills and still have 17D in normal attributes. In my game humans and some other species start with extra starting skill dice (Force and non-Force characters alike). I don't mind starting PCs being a little better off at first because advancement tends to be a little slower in my game.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The longer I consider this game, the more I think a single force attribute with three subordinate skills makes more sense than three attributeless Force Skills.

I do kinda like the idea that unspent Force Points would add to your Force skills, though... like, each unspent Force Point is a bonus pip, but each Dark Side point is a bonus die... until you completely fall to the dark side.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, you all do what works for ya. Like most here, I've played this game over 20 years. I'm pretty firmly settled on the notion that Jedi start unreasonably weak by RAW. Kytoss, I'd challenge you to consider that there might be something to that idea, if all your players change their mind once they see the rules.

My personal solution is a significant departure from RAW, though the solution I mentioned above is one I could live with if the goal was to keep very close to RAW.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Hey, you all do what works for ya. Like most here, I've played this game over 20 years. I'm pretty firmly settled on the notion that Jedi start unreasonably weak by RAW. Kytoss, I'd challenge you to consider that there might be something to that idea, if all your players change their mind once they see the rules.

My personal solution is a significant departure from RAW, though the solution I mentioned above is one I could live with if the goal was to keep very close to RAW.


YEs they start weak, but by comparison, once they get mid level skills, they can pretty much steal the show from all other pc's..
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill, garhkal, I have as much respect for your insights on tue issue as I do my own.

I do trust that Whill's idea addresses the issue that I have.

Garhkal, I have no doubts that your experiences justify your position, either.

I usually play Jedi (our GM historically gave the initial force dice for free, for a total of 21 attribute dice compared to everyone elses 18 ), but the occasional pilot/soldier/smuggler I've played has never felt underpowered at any stage of the game.

In our group, the restrictions of the Jedi code alone were enough to put off other players who fancied the moral "freedom" to kill by stealth or otherwise do things that would yield DSPs for force sensitive characters.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Whill, garhkal, I have as much respect for your insights on tue issue as I do my own.

I do trust that Whill's idea addresses the issue that I have.

Garhkal, I have no doubts that your experiences justify your position, either.

I have to agree with garhkal that even under RAW, Jedi PCs can eventually steal the show at some point if they survive that long. It's commonly held to be a flaw of system. But playing a Jedi sure does suck at first.

Naaman wrote:
I usually play Jedi (our GM historically gave the initial force dice for free, for a total of 21 attribute dice compared to everyone elses 18 ), but the occasional pilot/soldier/smuggler I've played has never felt underpowered at any stage of the game.

In our group, the restrictions of the Jedi code alone were enough to put off other players who fancied the moral "freedom" to kill by stealth or otherwise do things that would yield DSPs for force sensitive characters.

I've had a couple players who found that the moral standards of Jedi characters and DSP rules I enforce in play lead to them changing their mind on wanting to play Force-sensitive characters. Naaman, I have no doubt you are a good player for Jedi.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

I have to agree with garhkal that even under RAW, Jedi PCs can eventually steal the show at some point if they survive that long. It's commonly held to be a flaw of system. But playing a Jedi sure does suck at first.




Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Classic!
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Naaman, I have no doubt you are a good player for Jedi.


Thanks, Whill. It's the challenge of having to do things the right(eous) way versus the efficient or easy way that makes the game interesting for me.

And I sense that your comment may imply what I have always suspected of GMs who come down hard on "game balance" issues: players sometimes cannot be "trusted" with a certain amount of "power."

And that is something I totally understand; though to be honest, I get (unjustifiably) offended when I feel that I'm not trusted to play a certain power-level "responsibly." Many of my posts tend to be based on the assumption that we are all veteran gamers who have had to deal with power gamers and hack-and-slashers, but that this group is comprised of individuals who have matured past all that stuff.

I do tend to "min-max" after a certain fashion (that is, I seek to find the most efficient way to solve problems with the least possible expenditure of resources), but that describes the way I live my real life, so when I make a character, I try to be as well rounded as I can for the lowest possible opportunity cost... for me, it's a puzzle to solve that has no one correct solution. But the fun is in the solving and then application of that solution.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

I usually play Jedi (our GM historically gave the initial force dice for free, for a total of 21 attribute dice compared to everyone elses 18 ), but the occasional pilot/soldier/smuggler I've played has never felt underpowered at any stage of the game..


?? So starting with 3 full attribute dice down, never felt underpowered?? Wow. I've seen some players who griped cause a player started with a race that had only 16 starting dice (cause of his race) compared to everyone else..

Naaman wrote:

Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Classic!


It is.. And its actually a common comment i MAKE to players who are thinking of getting into Star-wars.. "Players of force using characters, always start of hamstrung in comparison to the other characters. Much like mages in ADND start out weak. BUT if they survive past the mid levels of power (or for ADND to say 7th level), that's when they come into their own and often can easily steal the show."
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, it wasn't "3 dice down" for non force sensitives.


Here's the reality: having 1D in a force skill is worthless. If you dodge, then you have no force skills. You pretty much need 3D if you want to be able to use the force with any hope of success, and right around 4D is where it starts to become reliable.

So, to get force skills up to where they are just useable takes 27 CPs (to get them all up to 3D), plus another 27 CPs before they approach the level of a starting skill at 4D. Remember, starting primary slills are often in the 4D to 6D range.

So even with the free force dice, the Jed has to commit 54 character points to get those skills up to where they start to "define" the character concept.

Meanwhile, the pilot or blaster slinger has 54 CPs to raise skills that started at 5D or 6D.


.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Whill wrote:
Naaman, I have no doubt you are a good player for Jedi.

Thanks, Whill. It's the challenge of having to do things the right(eous) way versus the efficient or easy way that makes the game interesting for me.

And I sense that your comment may imply what I have always suspected of GMs who come down hard on "game balance" issues: players sometimes cannot be "trusted" with a certain amount of "power."

No, I really just meant roleplaying Jedi characters well and player morality with respect to DSP rules. The first Force PC's player in my first campaign wasn't very good at roleplaying a Jedi. (The PC later died in a Force battle with a dark sider and the player never played a Force PC again.) In a couple of my other early campaigns, I had Jedi PC players who had trouble avoiding the Dark Side because you can't be rebel murder hobos with lightsabers. I have no doubt you would play a Jedi like a Jedi, and avoid DSP warnings. But yes, I would also trust you as a player with a powerful Jedi PC too.

Naaman wrote:
Now, it wasn't "3 dice down" for non force sensitives.

But the Force PC being down in attribute dice really makes the PC suck at about everything else but Force. My first campaign's Force PC was an altered Alien Student of the Force template of a custom near-human species. He started with all three Force skills. I don't like PCs having nothing to do on the starship so everyone has a station and a role. Even after advancing through experience for a while, the PC wasn't decent at much more than Force, astrogation and lightsaber. A good Force PC needs more than just Force. Most PCs need a good dodge, for example. All non-Force skills are based on attributes, and in RAW a PC with all three Force skills only has 15D in attributes. That's a sucky base to start with.

Naaman wrote:
Here's the reality: having 1D in a force skill is worthless. If you dodge, then you have no force skills. You pretty much need 3D if you want to be able to use the force with any hope of success, and right around 4D is where it starts to become reliable.

So, to get force skills up to where they are just useable takes 27 CPs (to get them all up to 3D), plus another 27 CPs before they approach the level of a starting skill at 4D. Remember, starting primary slills are often in the 4D to 6D range.

So even with the free force dice, the Jed has to commit 54 character points to get those skills up to where they start to "define" the character concept.

Meanwhile, the pilot or blaster slinger has 54 CPs to raise skills that started at 5D or 6D.

In my game, it is possible to start with all three Force skills and have 17D in normal attributes if you only put 1D in The Force. To maximize your Force skills you could put 2D in each which would give you Sense 3D/Control 3D/Alter 2D (remember Alter is an advanced skill in my game so not based on The Force attribute). If you played a human, you could still have 6D more in skill dice to place in non-Force skills (because starting humans can have up to 12D total in skill dice in my game). You would have only 1D less in attributes than a non-Force PC so could still have a decent Dexterity and base for the Lightsaber skill with some other skill areas. No, the overall Force abilities wouldn't be too great at first, but with Alter 2D and Telekinesis you could still flick a switch on a nearby console or make your lightsaber float from your capture's belt to your hand.

In my game you can put up to 3D in attribute dice into The Force at char gen, so you could start out at Sense 5D/Control 5D/Alter 2D with the same 6D in skill dice allocation. But the down side is that you would only have 15D in normal attributes which would suck. Despite the Force skills starting out higher, there only being two non-advanced Force skills and attribute dice being worth a lot more than skill dice, you really get more bang for your buck by only putting 1D into the Force and dumping max skill dice into the skills, thus having 17D in attribute dice for the six regular attributes. That is intentional by design. In my game where PCs have to be a bit more well-rounded, it is vital for Force PCs to not always have to depend on the Force or other party members for everything. It pays to start smaller with the Force but the PC will be much more likely to survive and be a meaningful part of the party until they work the Force abilities up and get closer to doing film character stuff. But having The Force attribute and the option of putting up to 3D into the Force attribute at char gen allows for maximizing Force ability up front if that is the most important thing to the character concept, and it still gives them some other skill dice to allocate to their lower normal attributes. Even though I strongly recommend not putting more than 1D into the Force attribute, the option is there.

The Force being an attribute explains some people being just naturally stronger in the Force (maybe the Skywalkers are 4D or more, beyond the realm of PCs). And in case anyone is curious, the reason Alter is an advanced skill is to explain characters like Chirrut Imwe. My game interpretation is that he has the Force attribute (Sense and Control comes with that automatically). He never learned the advanced skill of Alter so does not have Telekinesis or any of the other Alter, Control+Alter or Control+Sense+Alter powers. He only has Control, Sense and Control+Sense powers. So in my game you can be "Force-sensitive" without ever having Alter.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting Whill. Excellent description. Unfortunately, I'm having a hard time finding a GM with a group of players where the game wouldn't turn into a group of murder hobos, to use your term. Being the roleplayer in a group of murder hobos isn't appealing to me, I've done it a number of times.

The group I'm running right now is excellent. Two military veterans as players. Too bad neither is ready to GM D6, as there are a few characters I want to try out under a GM with a style similar my own. I could throw them in my group as PCs, but my players aren't ready to play with an advanced player yet.

I have a great deal of issues with the dark side in RAW. Using the force to injure or kill someone while defending yourself or others should not get you a Dark Side Point. There's a world of difference between killing someone and murdering someone. Additionally, in the prequels we see Jedi using the force to injure and kill repeatedly. Lightsaber throw and force push should both get you a DSP according to RAW.

So here's another house rule, if you are using the force defensively, to protect, then you will not earn a DSP. This clearly needs to be judged on a power-by-power basis, as some powers should still earn you a DSP just for using them. I would assume most of them would still earn you a DSP, so I'm not changing that until I work through each power, but telekinesis will not earn you a DSP in my games if used to protect people.


The idea of starting as a force strong character with little to no other skills currently appeals to me a great deal. It would challenge me as a player in new ways, ways I cannot even imagine until I am in them. It would challenge me to come up with new solutions to old problems. I am intrigued by the idea of being extremely advanced in some ways and extremely feeble in others.

I tried this once by playing a high knowledge, high perception, low combat skills character. I wanted to work my ways around combat. My knowledge rolls were fairly useless with that particular GM. I should have played a murder hobo. I do play a mean murder hobo, but I quickly find it boring.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

So even with the free force dice, the Jed has to commit 54 character points to get those skills up to where they start to "define" the character concept.

Meanwhile, the pilot or blaster slinger has 54 CPs to raise skills that started at 5D or 6D.
.


So do the other pcs get that 54cp to actually compensate for the jedi's getting 3 free attribute dice?
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