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Fixing Advanced Skills
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:01 pm    Post subject: Fixing Advanced Skills Reply with quote

The black text in this post is the background to the topic. The dark blue text at the bottom of this post is the proposed fix.

In 1e, the premise of the skill-based game system is that all skills default to attributes. 2e added the concept that some skills should not default, that they require years of disciplined study to have. Advanced skills have prerequisite skills levels of normal skills to qualify for, but they start at 1D, not on top of an attribute. For some uses of the prerequisite skills, you may get to add your advanced skill dice to the normal skill. But for the primary uses of the advanced skill itself, you just roll only its die code. With the starting PC rules, players may allocate 1D or 2D of their starting skill dice to skills, so if a player starts with an advanced skill, the highest die code they can start out with in it is 2D. Herein lies the problem.

The only advanced skill detailed in R&E is (A) medicine. It appropriately stacks with its prerequisite skill of first aid for using medpacs, but the only other use of (A) medicine that the book has rules for is bacta tank operation. It makes bacta tank rolls Very Easy, which is a good thing for starting PCs since they aren't going to have more than 2D to make that roll. What about other medical professional actions that might be harder than using a bacta tank? Medical droids have a high (A) medicine as you'd expect. Are PCs with (A) medicine one or two-year medical students who never graduated medical school?

Another RAW advanced skill is (A) engineering from Hideouts & Strongholds, or is it? (A) engineering is described as a base advanced skill with many specializations. At first I thought that you would get the base (A) engineering skill first, and then each specialization had its own prerequisites but once qualifying for any, the specialization dice would go on top of the base skill like a regular skill specialization, and the (A) medicine specializations. But it doesn't give any prerequisites for this supposed base engineering skill. So the intention must be that each specialization is its own advanced skill (and they are just nonsensically describing a base advanced skill that doesn't actually exist and the each kind of engineering being listed as if they were skill specializations when they're not). The other engineering skill with any RAW details, (A) droid engineering from Fantastic Technology: Droids, was presented as its own advanced skill, so this must be how it really works.

The engineering "specialization" Hideouts & Strongholds gives us rules for using is (A) engineering installations. Let's say a player chooses the Tongue-Tied Engineer character template (Technical 4D) to base an installations engineer on. Two of the skill's prerequisites are two 2D Technical skills, and those are covered by the base attribute. It also requires 1D in two other (A) engineering skills to choose from a list of five skills, but all of the skills have their own prerequisites. Civil/industrial engineering's prerequisites are all covered by this PC's base attributes, but all of the other four have 5D Technical skill requirements so they will all require placing starting skill dice in skills. Let's do space transports engineering. So the player allocates 1D in starting skill dice to raise space transports repair to 5D, 1D to space transport engineering, 1D in civil/industrial engineering, and to be the best installation engineer he can be, 2D in installation engineering. So the player has used 5D out of 7D to have 2D in installation engineering. Then looking at the skill difficulties, the PC can't design and lead the construction of anymore more than small basic dwellings and roads with much consistency. Maybe if they take twice as long (with additional labor costs) the GM will give the player an extra 1D. Better spends some CPs to make anything cool.

What if the Tongue-Tied Engineer player decides to instead make a droid engineer. Technical is 4D, so the player only has to allocate 2D total to the prerequisite skills (droid programming and droid repair) to get them to 5D each, the amount that gives you the full powers of the advanced skill. Then the player allocates 2D to get (A) droid engineering to 2D. That's spending 4D of starting skill dice to be a 2D droid engineer. Some of the upgrading traitware installation difficulties are high, but they require the (A) droid engineering skill alone or the droid repair skill at two higher difficulty levels above the chart's. Well, you are really good at repairing or programing droids, but a crappy engineer.

GMs are on their own for the other advance skills anyway because WEG only detailed a few. It seems to me that advanced skills were an undeveloped concept. How do we tweak this to make it work? Allowing the players to allocate more than 2D to advance skills is one way to deal with it, but as you know they don't have that many dice to go around as it is. To be a good medical doctor you can't really be good at anything else. I've spent a lot of my weekend racking my brain. After I started typing this post to rant against RAW and ask for advice (originally this thread was titled, "The problem with advanced skills"), I thought of a really simple fix. But of course, I still want to put it up for discussion.

Keeping advanced skills as not defaulting to attributes is absolutely essential to the concept of them being advanced skills. There are some things characters can't do at all without them, and others that are a lot harder. This is the way it should be. But what if the advanced skill dice are added to an attribute for the dice roll? You still record them the same as the dice value of just the skill. You still improve them the same at double the CP cost. You still add the die value to relevant normal skill die code for applicable rolls. The only thing different is, the advance skill gets boosted by an attribute value. If you add that to the three examples I gave above, suddenly everything makes more sense for professionals with years of dedicated training and experience in that profession before becoming a PC adventurer. Advance skills still aren't defaulting because if you don't have the advanced skill, you can't just roll a base attribute like normal skills.

Thoughts?

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sithholocron
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But what if the advanced skill dice are added to an attribute for the dice roll?


This is perfectly acceptable, I believe. Because I feel advanced skills are going to be much lower in D because of the expense of advancement. If anything, there could be a clause which states that if the Advance skill ever becomes equal to or higher than the attribute through training/learning/other than the attribute is no longer added to the pool. I feel this would equally balance it out, and still allow for an opportunity of success and familiar.


Quote:
Advance skills still aren't defaulting because if you don't have the advanced skill, you can't just roll a base attribute like normal skills


again I think this is perfect and makes sense mechanically and narratively. at least for me. I am sure others will have their opinions on the matter.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sithholocron wrote:
Quote:
But what if the advanced skill dice are added to an attribute for the dice roll?


This is perfectly acceptable, I believe. Because I feel advanced skills are going to be much lower in D because of the expense of advancement. If anything, there could be a clause which states that if the Advance skill ever becomes equal to or higher than the attribute through training/learning/other than the attribute is no longer added to the pool. I feel this would equally balance it out, and still allow for an opportunity of success and familiar.


SO the base attribute would only modify the (A) skill, if its low enough...?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
sithholocron wrote:
Quote:
But what if the advanced skill dice are added to an attribute for the dice roll?


This is perfectly acceptable, I believe. Because I feel advanced skills are going to be much lower in D because of the expense of advancement. If anything, there could be a clause which states that if the Advance skill ever becomes equal to or higher than the attribute through training/learning/other than the attribute is no longer added to the pool. I feel this would equally balance it out, and still allow for an opportunity of success and familiar.


SO the base attribute would only modify the (A) skill, if its low enough...?


I think that would make sense
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: Fixing Advanced Skills Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Thoughts?

After some consideration, I like it. Natural aptitude (as represented by Attributes) should still be a factor; a character with a Technical of 4D and 1D in (A) {Whatever} Engineering can be reasonably assumed to have a better grasp of the skills in question than would a character with the same skill and a Technical of 3D.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an option, that kind of splits the difference, between just rolling (A) skills, and adding (A) skills to the base attribute.. How's about you add a Bonus to the (A) skill roll, of say +1 (or +2), per full D you have in the attribute.. So someone with 3d, would roll +3 (or +6), added to the (A) skill.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like an additional layer of unnecessary math...
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
As an option, that kind of splits the difference, between just rolling (A) skills, and adding (A) skills to the base attribute.. How's about you add a Bonus to the (A) skill roll, of say +1 (or +2), per full D you have in the attribute.. So someone with 3d, would roll +3 (or +6), added to the (A) skill.


That sounds incredibly math heavy for no reason. you want to be able to do things quickly. not have your players do homework.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 21, 2020 11:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Fixing Advanced Skills Reply with quote

sithholocron wrote:
Quote:
Advance skills still aren't defaulting because if you don't have the advanced skill, you can't just roll a base attribute like normal skills

I think this is perfect and makes sense mechanically and narratively. at least for me.

Thanks! Me too. I do some "niche" stuff with my game system others don't care for, but this idea seems to be such a simple solution that a lot of people could get behind.

sithholocron wrote:
Quote:
But what if the advanced skill dice are added to an attribute for the dice roll?

Because I feel advanced skills are going to be much lower in D because of the expense of advancement. If anything, there could be a clause which states that if the Advance skill ever becomes equal to or higher than the attribute through training/learning/other than the attribute is no longer added to the pool. I feel this would equally balance it out, and still allow for an opportunity of success and familiar.

I think I see where you are coming from, but there are a couple issues with that. If the attribute just suddenly stopped being added, the total roll would suddenly drop a few dice at a certain point and that doesn't really make sense. Any gradual decrease in benefit from the attribute would require some system or calculation for implementing, and that seems to unnecessarily complicate it. And you mentioned the increasing cost of advancing the advanced skills, so either way the character would be hit two ways as he advanced the skill. A PC can't start with more than 2D on any advanced skill, so it may be fast improvement at first but with the double cost will really slow it down with every D. The total roll will still be on par with other skills (that can't start more than 2D above the base attribute). So I think it would be best to keep the attribute contribution to the roll forever, but it doesn't always have to be the same attribute for every roll...

CRMcNeill wrote:
Whill wrote:
Thoughts?

After some consideration, I like it. Natural aptitude (as represented by Attributes) should still be a factor; a character with a Technical of 4D and 1D in (A) {Whatever} Engineering can be reasonably assumed to have a better grasp of the skills in question than would a character with the same skill and a Technical of 3D.

Thanks. And it wouldn't necessarily even need to be the same attribute for every action. Going back to (A) medicine, Technical would be a good attribute to add the skill to for bacta tank use, but if a character was performing surgery on a patient I might have the character add his (A) medicine to Dexterity instead of Technical.

garhkal wrote:
As an option, that kind of splits the difference, between just rolling (A) skills, and adding (A) skills to the base attribute.. How's about you add a Bonus to the (A) skill roll, of say +1 (or +2), per full D you have in the attribute.. So someone with 3d, would roll +3 (or +6), added to the (A) skill.
sithholocron wrote:
That sounds incredibly math heavy for no reason. you want to be able to do things quickly. not have your players do homework.
CRMcNeill wrote:
Sounds like an additional layer of unnecessary math...

One pip for every die isn't math heavy. You literally just use the number in front of the D in the attribute and make it into pips. Easy. However the +2 for every D would start to get confusing and arithmetical errors could easily creep in. For that reason the one pip for every D is better than two.

garhkal, I appreciate your compromise idea instead of a flat-out 'stingy GM' rejection. What you suggest is better than RAW, and maybe someone reading this will like it. I feel it is still too weak because the max starting advanced skill value is only 2D. Adding some pips to that is still not enough for droid and installation engineering difficulties. I think my full attribute dice idea is better. Like I said above, starting PCs can't put more than 2D into any normal skill anyway, so advanced skills starting with a max die code of 2D makes the total roll work out to be like other skills. There are few advanced skills and they have limited advanced applications anyway. Boosting normal skill codes when applicable is probably going to be used more in the game than advanced uses of the skill itself, and this mod leaves that the same as in RAW.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sithholocron wrote:
garhkal wrote:
As an option, that kind of splits the difference, between just rolling (A) skills, and adding (A) skills to the base attribute.. How's about you add a Bonus to the (A) skill roll, of say +1 (or +2), per full D you have in the attribute.. So someone with 3d, would roll +3 (or +6), added to the (A) skill.


That sounds incredibly math heavy for no reason. you want to be able to do things quickly. not have your players do homework.


Math heavy?? How? Just write on the character sheet (A) medicine, xd +2, 3 or 4 (based on your attribute)..??

Quote:
garhkal, I appreciate your compromise idea instead of a flat-out 'stingy GM' rejection. What you suggest is better than RAW, and maybe someone reading this will like it. I feel it is still too weak because the max starting advanced skill value is only 2D. Adding some pips to that is still not enough for droid and installation engineering difficulties. I think my full attribute dice idea is better. Like I said above, starting PCs can't put more than 2D into any normal skill anyway, so advanced skills starting with a max die code of 2D makes the total roll work out to be like other skills. There are few advanced skills and they have limited advanced applications anyway. Boosting normal skill codes when applicable is probably going to be used more in the game than advanced uses of the skill itself, and this mod leaves that the same as in RAW.


BUT then they're not really advance skills, IF THEY ARE still adding the Full attribute value to them, they are just regular skills...
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Quote:
garhkal, I appreciate your compromise idea instead of a flat-out 'stingy GM' rejection. What you suggest is better than RAW, and maybe someone reading this will like it. I feel it is still too weak because the max starting advanced skill value is only 2D. Adding some pips to that is still not enough for droid and installation engineering difficulties. I think my full attribute dice idea is better. Like I said above, starting PCs can't put more than 2D into any normal skill anyway, so advanced skills starting with a max die code of 2D makes the total roll work out to be like other skills. There are few advanced skills and they have limited advanced applications anyway. Boosting normal skill codes when applicable is probably going to be used more in the game than advanced uses of the skill itself, and this mod leaves that the same as in RAW.

BUT then they're not really advance skills, IF THEY ARE still adding the Full attribute value to them, they are just regular skills...

That's incorrect. Advance skills do not default to the attribute like normal skills. If you don't have an advanced skill, you can't use it. That's the difference.

If a PC has 4D Technical and doesn't have the first aid skill, he can still make a first aid attempt by rolling 4D, the base attribute. The character later raises his first aid skill to 5D, but he still can't roll (A) medicine if he doesn't have that too. He can't perform surgery with first aid. The rules say he can use his 5D first aid skill to try operating a bacta tank, but his difficulty is Heroic AND if the character's roll fails, the patient's wound status worsens by two levels. If the character gets (A) medicine at 1D, my rule would allow him to add the advanced skill roll to the attribute, so in this case it would be the same amount of dice rolled but it is now the advanced rules with a much easier difficulty, and the patient is not in danger of worsening two levels.

See the difference? Without the advanced skill, some things are much more difficult and some things are flat-out impossible. Advanced skills do NOT default to the attribute. This mod just gives professionals with advanced training a reasonable amount of dice to roll when they use the advanced skill.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, they're not being able to "Default", but if you are still adding the attribute to the (A) skill, HOW is that anyway, different than regular skills?
That is what i was getting at.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
HOW is that anyway, different than regular skills?

Advanced skills are different than normal skills in many ways:

    1. Advanced skills do not default attributes - A character cannot use it unskilled at all.
    2. Advanced skills demand years of disciplined study so starting with them requires them to be especially accounted for in the character's background.
    3. Advanced skills are rare - Most character do not have them.
    4. Advanced skills can boost normal skills when applicable to the expertise of the advanced skill.
    5. Advanced skills have prerequisite requirements, meaning players creating characters may have to put dice into related normal skills to qualify for an advanced skill.
    6. Advanced skills cost double the skill point requirements to advance.


garhkal wrote:
if you are still adding the attribute to the (A) skill...

The mod I am suggesting is just to add an attribute to the advanced skill roll. I'm not changing anything else above. When an advanced skill boosts a normal skill in RAW, that is a way bigger benefit than the what I am suggesting in this thread, which only applies to rolls of using the advanced skill itself.

So an advanced skill is still very different than a normal skill, but yes, the total dice rolled with this mod does make it a little more like a normal skill. That's the point. I feel RAW is too low for something "advanced." If adding the full applicable attribute die code to the advanced skill roll is too much for you, then you can always use your one or two pips per attribute die idea instead.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Garhkal's idea isn't "math heavy" in my opinion.

Also, I agree with Whill's proposal. As a matter of fact, I posted an idea very similar to this one a few years ago. There may be something useful there for anyone interested in looking at it.

https://rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6024&highlight=advanced
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Fixing Advanced Skills Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Thanks. And it wouldn't necessarily even need to be the same attribute for every action. Going back to (A) medicine, Technical would be a good attribute to add the skill to for bacta tank use, but if a character was performing surgery on a patient I might have the character add his (A) medicine to Dexterity instead of Technical.

Strictly speaking, Technical already has something of a Dexterity component built into it. Making precise manipulations of tiny, delicate components, whether artificial or organic, certainly isn't the same as firing a blaster pistol or picking a pocket, but it does require a degree of hand-eye coordination to be good at it.

Of course, IIRC, you moved First Aid and (A) Medicine over to Knowledge, and it's a lot harder to justify a Dexterity component to the Knowledge Attribute.

Also, what's your take on adding the (A) Skill to multiple Attributes? The (A) Civil Engineering skill, for example, has several Knowledge skills as prerequisites. Should the character be allowed to add either their Technical or Knowledge Attribute to their (A) Skill depending on the circumstances?

Quote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Sounds like an additional layer of unnecessary math...

One pip for every die isn't math heavy.

To be fair, I just said it wasn't necessary. Sure, it would be easy enough; I just don't see the need for it.
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