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Would you allow this character in your game?
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:21 pm    Post subject: Would you allow this character in your game? Reply with quote

Padawan

Dexterity 3D
Knowledge 2D
Mechanical 2D
Perception 3D
Strength 3D
Technical 2D

Control 3D
Sense 3D
Alter 3D

With the following force powers

Control Powers
Absorb/Dissipate Energy
Accelerate Healing
Concentration
Control Pain
Enhance Attribute

Sense Powers
Combat Sense
Danger Sense
Life Detections
Life Sense
Magnify Senses
Receptive Telepathy
Translation

Alter Powers
Telekinesis

Sense & Control
Lightsaber Combat
Projective Telepathy

Control and Alter
Accelerate Another's Healing
Control Another’s Pain

Sense & Alter
Dim Another's Senses
Lesser Force Shield

Control, Sense & Alter
Affect Mind
Battle Meditation
Enhanced Coordination


My thoughts are that this follows the guidelines set forth in 2E R&E. You get a force power when you first learn the skills Control, Sense, and Alter. You get a force power every time you go up by 1 pip with a teacher. Assuming this character was taught up to 3D in each ability they would have 7 powers per ability. According to 2E R&E you can learn a power that uses the skill you improved. So you can learn a Control, Sense, & Alter power just by improving Alter.

2E R&E Page 141 wrote:

Note: A character may be taught a new power each time a Force skill is improved one pip.

Force Powers: A character may be taught a new power each time a Force skill is improved one pip. The new power is chosen by the teacher and must use the improved Force skill (for instance, a Jedi improving control could not learn a power based solely on alter).


There's still a skill die that hasn't been placed yet.

This is all theoretical. I am playing with the system, and trying to break it without breaking a rule. Let me know what you guys think.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. I wouldn't. That is NOT what i see as a padawan (too many powers)..
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
My thoughts are that this follows the guidelines set forth in 2E R&E. You get a force power when you first learn the skills Control, Sense, and Alter. You get a force power every time you go up by 1 pip with a teacher. Assuming this character was taught up to 3D in each ability they would have 7 powers per ability.


Star Wars REUP wrote:
Force Powers. A character may be taught a new power each time a Force skill is improved one pip.

Force Powers. A power that uses two skills — control and sense — counts as two powers when being taught powers. A power that uses three skills — control, sense and alter — counts as three powers when being taught powers.


Per the rules this gives you 21 total slots, 7 slots in each Force Skill (Control, Alter, Sense). Force Skills that require 2 or more slots count as a single pick from each of the pre-requisites. The character you have presented has 34 slots, (Control: 12, Sense: 14, Alter: 8 ).

Kytross wrote:
According to 2E R&E you can learn a power that uses the skill you improved. So you can learn a Control, Sense, & Alter power just by improving Alter.


Star Wars REUP wrote:
Force Skills. The character gets the skill at 1D. (The character is also taught one Force power pertaining to the skill; see “Force Powers.”)

Force Powers. The new power is chosen by the teacher and must use the improved Force skill (for instance, a Jedi improving control could not learn a power based solely on alter).


If creating a new template, which is what you are doing, it states:

Star Wars REUP wrote:
Force Skills. With the permission of the gamemaster, you may choose to give a Force-sensitive character Force skills. There are three Force skills: control, sense and alter. You can give your character 1D in a Force skill at a cost of 1D of attribute dice.


There are no examples of a template starting with more than 1D in any Force Skills and it is implied at character generation that you can only take 1D in a given Force Skill. It is further implied that all Force Skill at character generation will come from the Attribute Dice pool.

In my games, I require the first D of a Force Skill to be taken from the Attribute Dice and can be further improved by using Skill Dice, but no more than 2D. I feel this in keeping with the "spirit" of the rules.

As for Force Powers, keep in mind, those "free" slots can be "banked" and that powers themselves are not guaranteed even with a teacher.

No matter how you want to make the character it is mechanically incorrect in several key places. I would not allow this character in my game as a PC.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, egg on my face. I can't find the rule that you can use skill dice to improve force skills. I thought it was in Jedi Academy. I guess we've been gaming with it for so long that I assumed it was a rule.

I'll look again, if I find it I will let you guys know. Or if someone else finds it, let me know.

Also, page 141 in 2E R&E is where it says a power that uses 2 force skills costs twice as much to learn. There should be a rule summary at the end of each chapter. Save us the trouble of scouring through these texts

Or maybe I just really screwed the pooch on this one.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, thanks for the replies Garhkal and shootingwomprats. I appreciate you guys taking the time to help me out.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only rule I’m aware of that comes close to what you are suggesting is the Force Attribute House rule.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting read CRM. I like the idea.

I think we house ruled this back in college so we could start as Jedi characters. If you're doing a skill point buy to create advanced characters, force skills would cost 1 point with a teacher, or 2 points without one.

If that's not clear enough, I can go into detail.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:56 am    Post subject: Re: Would you allow this character in your game? Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
Padawan

Dexterity 3D
Knowledge 2D
Mechanical 2D
Perception 3D
Strength 3D
Technical 2D

Control 3D
Sense 3D
Alter 3D
...
There's still a skill die that hasn't been placed yet.

shootingwomprats wrote:
There are no examples of a template starting with more than 1D in any Force Skills and it is implied at character generation that you can only take 1D in a given Force Skill.

shootingwomprats, you misunderstand. The raised Force skills come from skill dice allocation. The "template" is 15D in the attributes and 1D each in the three Force skills, for a total of 18D. Then he allocated 6D of his 7D in skills to the Force skills (2D each), and like he said, he has 1D left to allocate to non-Force skills.

Kytross wrote:
Well, egg on my face. I can't find the rule that you can use skill dice to improve force skills. I thought it was in Jedi Academy. I guess we've been gaming with it for so long that I assumed it was a rule.

I'll look again, if I find it I will let you guys know. Or if someone else finds it, let me know.

There's no egg on your face. You can use starting skill dice to improve Force skills listed on the template. See R&E p. 28.

R&E p.32 wrote:
Force Skills. With the permission of the gamemaster, you may choose to give a Force-sensitive character Force skills. There are three Force skills: control, sense and alter. You can give your character 1D in a Force skill at a cost of 1D of attribute dice.
shootingwomprats wrote:
It is further implied that all Force Skill at character generation will come from the Attribute Dice pool.

It's not implied. It's quite explicit in RAW.

shootingwomprats wrote:
In my games, I require the first D of a Force Skill to be taken from the Attribute Dice and can be further improved by using Skill Dice, but no more than 2D. I feel this in keeping with the "spirit" of the rules.

It's not just the "spirit" of the rules. That is exactly the RAW.

shootingwomprats wrote:
No matter how you want to make the character it is mechanically incorrect in several key places.

It is only incorrect in one way, the number of Force Powers (as you pointed out). The rest is allowed under RAW (with GM permission of creating a new Force-sensitive template).

Kytross wrote:
There's still a skill die that hasn't been placed yet... Let me know what you guys think.

The player better put the last 1D of starting skill dice on dodge because this character is going to pretty much suck at everything but using the Force!

Kytross wrote:
Interesting read CRM. I like the idea.

I have The Force attribute with Sense as the only regular defaulting skill. Control and Alter are advanced skills.

Kytross wrote:
Would you allow this character in your game?

After correcting the starting powers, if I ran my game by RAW I wouldn't outright prohibit this character, but I would strongly recommend the player not put 6D of the 7D starting skill dice in Force skills.

Kytross wrote:
This is all theoretical. I am playing with the system, and trying to break it without breaking a rule. Let me know what you guys think.

I wouldn't worry about this character breaking the game. I think the game would break the character and he wouldn't probably very long.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
Well, egg on my face. I can't find the rule that you can use skill dice to improve force skills. I thought it was in Jedi Academy. I guess we've been gaming with it for so long that I assumed it was a rule.

I'll look again, if I find it I will let you guys know. Or if someone else finds it, let me know.

Also, page 141 in 2E R&E is where it says a power that uses 2 force skills costs twice as much to learn. There should be a rule summary at the end of each chapter. Save us the trouble of scouring through these texts

Or maybe I just really screwed the pooch on this one.


I looked in the 2e R&E as well and couldn't see it, so i backtracked to the base blue cover 2e book. And on page 12, it says
Quote:
Some characters, like jedi knights and some alien races have special abilities.
The alien student of the force, young jedi and failed jedi have force skills (control, sense and alter). The player CAN spend some of his beginning skill dice to improve these skills, as if they were normal skills.


However, no where do i see anything say "when improving your STARTING force skills, with beginning skill dice, treat the improvement, as you would IN game improvements to the force skills, in that you gain new force powers on a 1 for 1 pip basis, as if you had a teacher.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Garhkal! I knew I had read that in a book. I've got a copy of 2E around here somewhere.

The learning powers thing is an extrapolation. Would you guys approves allowing a starting character additional force powers per pip spent?

I think it's a trade off. Most powers require an easy roll as a minimum. Even with 3D you can fail that.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill, excellent post! Wow, that's great information!

I never make starting Jedi. I've been scouring the rules, trying to make sure I am getting everything right. I will get up a revised powers list shortly.

Whill, I was torn between improving dodge or lightsaber. This character would have to be a thinker, not someone who rushes into combat. Either way, thanks for letting me know I wasn't completely wrong.

Man, I am glad I asked.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Control Powers
Absorb/Dissipate Energy
Accelerate Healing
Concentration
Control Pain


Sense Powers
Combat Sense
Danger Sense
Life Detections
Life Sense
Magnify Senses
Receptive Telepathy
Translate

Alter Powers
Telekinesis

Sense & Control
Lightsaber Combat
Projective Telepathy

Control and Alter
Accelerate Another's Healing

Control, Sense & Alter
Battle Meditation

The revised list. 21 power slots.

I envision a number of his first rounds of combat being roll Concentrate, roll Dodge. May not be able to get off a Concentrate in that first round.

Round two, safely behind cover, roll Concentrate, roll Combat Sense.

Round three, deal with the situation.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:

The learning powers thing is an extrapolation. Would you guys approves allowing a starting character additional force powers per pip spent?

I think it's a trade off. Most powers require an easy roll as a minimum. Even with 3D you can fail that.


No. At most i'd do a 1 power per additional full D they start with.
From MY reading of that rule, you learn 1 power per pip of advancement, IN GAME not prior to starting it.

And with 21 power slots, it still looks like someone of knight level, not a padawan.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on the level of the padawan.

Obi-want in TPM, and Anakin in AotC were both padawans and clearly beyond this point. They are both shown to be on par with Jedi Knights and Sith Lords.

On the other hand, Anakin is a padawan at the end of RPM, and is just starting to learn the ways of the force.

Some math for you.

With a teacher it takes 10 days to learn a force skill to 1D, 3 days to raise it to 2D, 6 days to raise it to 3D, 9 days to raise it to 4D. 4D is professional level.

That's 10+3+6+9=28 days to go from 0D to 4D in a force skill.

28×3= 106 days to raise all three skills to 4D.

I would say that those are 106 nonconsecutive days.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2018 1:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That assumes you have 106cp to spend, and get uninterrupted training, and also HAVE a teacher..
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