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Another look at Battle Meditation
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:25 pm    Post subject: Another look at Battle Meditation Reply with quote

Ah, battle meditation. If ever we needed an errata fix from WEG it was on this force power. After a decade of argumentation, here's what I am going to try next.

Battle meditation can only be used to confuse your enemies. They resist with Willpower.

That's it. Simple. If you want to help yours allies, then use enhance coordination. Thoughts?



I still maintain the Tales of the Jedi sourcebook has the vigorous editorial standards of a kindergarten.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm gonna have to read up on prior threads before i can really give my input on that suggestion..

Seeing we only had the one thrad, and it was only 9 comments, i can't see where you are getting the idea "After a decade of argumentation".. We barely had a few months of arguing over it..
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have been getting into arguments on what the text is supposed to mean since the Tales of the Jedi source book was published. Mostly in real life or elsewhere on the net, apparently. Comic book shops and the like too.

I've never found a good plan for the second use of the power. I've even banned the power from my games.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Battle Meditation is one of those powers that seems to have completely disappeared by the Clone Wars and later eras. So, with most campaigns that are being run, it's a non-issue.

Another possible approach is to break the power into 3 separate versions of Battle Meditation. Initiate, Knight, Master, or call it something else, with each version requiring the previous one, and each only giving access to a single aspect of the power.

But, you are correct, the power has a lot of really bad editing going on, for one, the math in the example of the use of the power doesn't add up with the description above.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with breaking the power up Raven. That's why I split it with Enhanced Coordination. I do think there should be a power that lets you confuse your enemies. I like that aspect of battle meditation.

Enhanced Coordination has clear rules. It gives a boost based on your allies strengths. It gives your group an advantage without being overpowering. For Jedi who are less than stellar in star ships, it gives you a way to help out on the ship.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see how it would be VERY useful, if you have a big enough set of skills.

Consider a Jedi with 5D in all force skills. If they bring up Battle Meditation in a single round, they're rolling 2D, but that can pretty reliably hit an Easy difficulty... so, in fights up to 20 people, she can cause all of her enemies a penalty, and all of her allies a bonus.

Now, how BIG of a bonus or penalty is the question, since the example makes it "Equal to your biggest force power", but the description says "1D per 4D of force powers".

I can see the use, it's just horribly, horribly written and checked.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2018 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
I can see the use, it's just horribly, horribly written and checked.


It would take a full rewrite. And getting people all on the same page. And it's incredibly powerful, even at 1D for 4D.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At the very least, the Fratricide power should be stripped from it and made its own ability.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed. That's how I'm using it. Though we could eliminate Battle Meditation and call it two different powers:

Confusion - Confusing the enemy and causing them to fight among themselves.

Unbalance - Taking your enemy's attribute and giving it to your allies.

I'm not necessarily advocating this, I think Enhance Coordination does the job just fine. But there should be a confusion power, which is what prompted me to take another look at Battle Meditation in the first place.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was reading up on both battle meditation and enhanced coordination.
The only things I question are what skill/attribute used to resist.

"When attempting to turn attackers against each other, the Jedi’s highest skill roll (control, sense, or alter) to activate the skill becomes the difficulty the targets must beat to avoid the
effect. Otherwise they immediately see their allies as the “true” enemy and attack. "
The examples in the book gave no skill or attribute to roll for resisting. This could be much of the issues with this power.
I would argue it would be resisted by either willpower or command
Both being skills most commanders have some D in and thus have a reasonable chance of resisting, lessening the power of the battle meditation.

Now the other one, it seems when success the jedi can choose to lower one attribute = to highest force skill, and raise his allies Attribute with the same value.

Not really something too over powered, Again as it is reasonable to use command/willpower to counter this, or another force power if trained.

If we look at enhanced coordination it is a lesser version allowing for only a bonus to allies and a lower one than from battle meditation.
And it applies only to certain skills, not attributes.

So the main issue is the power, or potentially overpowered battle meditation.
I say allow a MAX +4D/-4D or a 1D+/- per 3D in highest force skill.

Again allow willpower or command to counter, after all these are force powers meant for groups much larger than mere player groups, and the difficulty reflects # people affected, up to the 10 000+

If we look at some armors and the DEX penalties they give they actually give more penalties to DEX than a jedi with 2D in the used Force skill
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enhance Coordination came first, and can affect much larger groups.

Battle Meditation can be used to lower the enemies strength, lowering their damage resist, or soak. By affecting attributes it affects a large number of skills. I find it to be overpowering.

Your mileage may vary
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
Enhance Coordination came first, and can affect much larger groups.

Battle Meditation can be used to lower the enemies strength, lowering their damage resist, or soak. By affecting attributes it affects a large number of skills. I find it to be overpowering.

Your mileage may vary


I agree. I've never liked the whole "it can take strength FROM the enemies and give it to your allies or mass confusion" aspects of it.. Sounds more like a SITH power to me.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Kytross wrote:
Enhance Coordination came first, and can affect much larger groups.

Battle Meditation can be used to lower the enemies strength, lowering their damage resist, or soak. By affecting attributes it affects a large number of skills. I find it to be overpowering.

Your mileage may vary


I agree. I've never liked the whole "it can take strength FROM the enemies and give it to your allies or mass confusion" aspects of it.. Sounds more like a SITH power to me.


I actually agree with this.

If we read the tekst this is very much a control mind (Dark power) effect, it makes the target actually turn and attack their allies/own forces....

Now the bonuses, + to your side and - to the enemy is ok I think
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think most powers are dark side or light side. I view the force as a non-sentient energy field and how you use it affects you, the same way all power tends to affect humanity.

That being said, during war/battle/conflict the mass confusion aspect of Battle Meditation is a legitimate use of the force for a Jedi. It is no worse than striking down all your opponents with your lightsaber.

I also think that attacking your opponents would give them a significant modifier to shake off the effects of the mass confusion.

And you're right Mamatried, the description does not say what they roll to resist with. I assumed it was Willpower, though most force powers are resisted with perception for some reason.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
I
That being said, during war/battle/conflict the mass confusion aspect of Battle Meditation is a legitimate use of the force for a Jedi. It is no worse than striking down all your opponents with your lightsaber.


To me its exactly like mass control mind, where using it to cause harm to someone else, nets YOU a DSP..
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