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A Starting Character
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
Luke's Starship gunnery is only 6D. So concentration brings him to 9D and an FP puts him at 18D.

Works for me.


That's right. His gunnery is 6D. What about Piloting? What about shields? What about blaster? And so on. What about those mysterious 3D Control and 2D in Sense that he some how mustered up?

He's definitely, IMO, far more powerful than an 18D/7D/2FP/5CP character by the time he takes on the Death Star.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Interesting that you'd allow the scale bonus. The target is 2m wide... "impossible, even for a computer."

Seconded. At 2 meters wide, I'd actually go the other way and apply -6D since the exhaust port is essentially character scale.

Frankly, the Death Star is a bad example to use with the RAW for starship damage. A more realistic approach would be to treat it like a planet, then use individual stats for weapons emplacements to be engaged at the appropriate scale. No Starfighter has even a prayer of inflicting even Light Damage on a Death Star just by rolling damage against its Hull.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:


That's right. His gunnery is 6D. What about Piloting? What about shields? What about blaster? And so on. What about those mysterious 3D Control and 2D in Sense that he some how mustered up?

He's definitely, IMO, far more powerful than an 18D/7D/2FP/5CP character by the time he takes on the Death Star.


Starfighter 7D, Shields 5D, Blaster 6D. With a Mech of 4D and a Dex of 3D, those are not starting stats for Starfighter or Blaster.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:17 am    Post subject: Re: A Starting Character Reply with quote

1) I have always maintained that the game system's purpose is to simulate the cinematic reality of the Star Wars films towards creating new stories with original characters that seem like they could exist in the same universe. Which means, things my game's PCs do shouldn't seem impossible within the Star Wars universe, but the film characters do not have to strictly conform to the rules of the game (which is putting the repulsor sled before the bantha).

2) The SW Rules Companion (1.5e) even states a disclaimer that the Skywalkers are exceptions rather than the rule.

3) Those things being said, it can still be interesting to stat out film characters.

MrNexx wrote:
Was Luke a starting character at the beginning of A New Hope?

IMO, no. Luke is an NPC and of course he doesn't have to be a starting PC, so I read the question to really be asking if Luke should merely be a starting PC or should he be better. I think it is funny that according to the SW Trilogy Sb SE, RAW has Luke as only having 17D+1 in normal attributes, but with much more than 7D in skills as of the Battle of Yavin. I'm not going to bother with statting out all of Luke's skills and Force powers in ANH, but here is my take on Luke's attributes (please note that in my game human average is 2D+1 and human max is 4D+1, but PCs still have 18D total).

DEX 3D+1
KNO 2D+1
MEC 4D+1
PER 3D
STR 3D
TEC 3D
FOR 4D

That puts my Luke at 19D in normal attributes, for a total of 23D with The Force attribute. Maybe Luke didn't even improve Force skills in his short time with Obi-Wan and Luke just learned a power or two for use with his natural born Force ability. I think RAW overdid it with the skills. I think RAW's high starship skills are quite absurd if he never even left Tatooine before, but I'd let him have a little over base attribute from spending a lot of time with his friends flying an old starfighter combat simulator at Toche Station (maybe 1D over, tops). I'd give Luke a bunch of CPs to use for the space battles. I guess I probably would honor RAW starting PC rules in one way - I probably wouldn't give him more than 2D in any one skill. But I certainly would not limit his skill allocations to 7D or even 12D total in total skill dice. Just eyeballing it, I think I may give Luke approximately 28D in skill allocation in my skill system, which would still be substantially less powered than what RAW made him.

No, not even close to a starting character.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
Naaman wrote:


That's right. His gunnery is 6D. What about Piloting? What about shields? What about blaster? And so on. What about those mysterious 3D Control and 2D in Sense that he some how mustered up?

He's definitely, IMO, far more powerful than an 18D/7D/2FP/5CP character by the time he takes on the Death Star.


Starfighter 7D, Shields 5D, Blaster 6D. With a Mech of 4D and a Dex of 3D, those are not starting stats for Starfighter or Blaster.


Very true. Heck looking at his write up in ANH's sourcebook (galaxy guide 1), he's wrote as a Brash pilot template;
DEX 3D. Blaster 6d, brawl parry 4d, dodge 6d, lightsaber 4d+1, melee combat 4d, and melee parry 5d.
KNOW 2D. Alien species 3d, bureaucracy 2d+2, streetwise 2d+1, survival 6d, value 4d
MECH 4D. Astrog 5d, beast ride 4d+2, repusorlift ops 8d (S) Airspeeder 8d, Starfighter piloting 7d, gunnery 6d, shields 5d.

So right there, we see he's got 11d+1 in skill dice just in Dex alone, another 8d in knowldge, 19d+2 in mechanical. That's not even touching his Str, Per or Tech. Though he IS +2 pips light on attributes for a brash pilot (Per should be 3d iirc).
And that's on top of 15cp and 6fp.

So there's no way in hell he's a starting made character..
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: A Starting Character Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
2) The SW Rules Companion (1.5e) even states a disclaimer that the Skywalkers are exceptions rather than the rule.


I totally get why a GM would go by something like this. It's not my taste, though. I prefer to let the PCs be the most important characters for any particular moment in time that they are contributing to the salvation of the galaxy (in other words, if they fail in the rebellion era, then Luke will die or will also fail or whatever; in the RotE era, Padme will die or Anakin and Obi Wan will die, or what-have-you). This means that they are just as anomolous as "the Skywalkers" and that whether they ever meet a Skywalker or not, their respective "destinies" are linked or intertwined, etc.

This way, the movie characters don't get to overshadow the PCs and they don't feel like their on a rail road with a predetermined outcome.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do something similar.

In my games everything that happened up to that point in canon has happened. The future is uncertain and the PCs can change it.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don’t think that mindset really fits with Star Wars as we know it. We’ve known from the beginning that our characters were, at best, supporting cast members in the universe of the films. Any derivative RPG (i.e. one based off another form of media: Star Wars, Star Trek, Indiana Jones, etc.) is going to be based around the core story and core characters. Star Wars Rebels is a perfect example of how characters can have their own heroic adventures and interact with the main characters without undercutting the core story of Star Wars.

As far as Luke’s stats, I’d go even further than 4D for his Force stats. Anakin was basically the Wookiee or Esoomian of the Force Stat, so I’d put him at 7D, with Luke slightly less at 6D. Leia, taking more after her mother, I’d put down in the 3D or 4D range. Giving Luke and Anakin such an insanely high Star makes it a lot easier to justify why they were so powerful, why they learned so much so quickly, and why the average PC can’t.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:40 am    Post subject: Re: A Starting Character Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Whill wrote:
The SW Rules Companion (1.5e) even states a disclaimer that the Skywalkers are exceptions rather than the rule.

I totally get why a GM would go by something like this. It's not my taste, though. I prefer to let the PCs be the most important characters for any particular moment in time that they are contributing to the salvation of the galaxy (in other words, if they fail in the rebellion era, then Luke will die or will also fail or whatever; in the RotE era, Padme will die or Anakin and Obi Wan will die, or what-have-you). This means that they are just as anomolous as "the Skywalkers" and that whether they ever meet a Skywalker or not, their respective "destinies" are linked or intertwined, etc.

This way, the movie characters don't get to overshadow the PCs and they don't feel like their on a rail road with a predetermined outcome.

Whoa, you're taking that way out of context. We were taking about statting Luke, and that RC statement was an extrapolation about Skywalkers mostly in reference to Luke's starting Force potential and speed at improving Force skills. It was beyond what PCs can do in RAW. The purpose of the statement was to address a player trying to use Luke as a precedent for how much they can increase their Sense skill in a week. And like I also said in the same post, the purpose of the game is to create new stories starring new characters that seem like they could take place in the same universe as the films, not to retro-conform the film heroes to every single game rule for PCs (or even NPCs). A PC needing to take longer than Luke did to train in the Force does not mean the game is contradicting the films.

But riding the tangent wave, I'm down with campaigns where the PCs are the big damn heroes. In my game PCs do not get the skill level of film heroes but some of mine have still had some quite epic adventures, including even saving the universe.

Kytross wrote:
I do something similar.

In my games everything that happened up to that point in canon has happened. The future is uncertain and the PCs can change it.

Out of my eight prior campaign universes, only three of them definitely did not diverge from film continuity, what I call the "metaplot". The metaplot defiance of two more campaigns was undetermined, which means three definitely did contradict film continuity at some point after ANH. In one universe, the PCs killed Jabba the Hutt and Boba Fett. They also discovered the Death Star II under construction at Endor early and befriended Ewoks, later returning to lead a Rebel assault on Endor.

In another universe, mercenary/bounty hunter PCs destroyed the Millennium Falcon and killed Chewbacca, causing Han to leave the rebellion to hunt them down for revenge. In that campaign's conclusion the PCs made a deal with Han and the Alliance to end the vendetta and attack Coruscant together. With the help of a kyberish crystal, the PCs took on the Emperor (and lost several PCs in the process) but ended up trapping the Emperor's mind in the body of a non-Force-sensitive Gamorrean. That battle directly impacted a nearby battle between a better-trained Luke and Vader, which Luke won by turning to the Dark Side, killing Vader, and disappearing. The PCs became galactic heroes and collected their bounty while Han left with Threepio in the Slave-1 to go find Luke, and Leia left with Artoo in Luke's X-Wing to get training on Dagobah.

And in another universe, four classic-era PCs encountered a space-time anomaly in their ship and were blasted 15 years into a future where the Rebels had lost some conflict called "the Battle of Endor", all the film heroes were dead, and the Emperor and Vader ruled the galaxy supreme with multiple completed DS-II Death Stars. The Alliance's only Force-user was the now-teenaged son of a PC from the group who had died. The PCs became convinced that the reason for the Alliance loss at Endor was their absence from the battle, so they decided that the only way to save the galaxy was to infiltrate a Death Star with the kid and secure tech they could use with the data on their ship's computer to travel back to their original time. But while they were there they realized that if they are destroyed in the escape from the Death Star or attempting to go back in time, they are leaving the galaxy hopeless. The player of the group's Force PC and leader, the former apprentice of the kid's father, decides his PC will stay in this timeline in case the other PCs fail (possibly sacrificing his existence if the other PCs succeed). So they come up with an alternate plan, severely disable the Death Star and escape in two ships. The rest of the PCs do make it back in time, and in an epic battle where their ship is destroyed, the PCs destroy an Imperial research base near the anomaly that would develop the tech they had used in the future to travel to the past, thereby preventing the Empire from ever gaining the ability to time travel.

So this GM knows all about making the players feel that their PCs are important!

CRMcNeill wrote:
I don’t think that mindset really fits with Star Wars as we know it. We’ve known from the beginning that our characters were, at best, supporting cast members in the universe of the films. Any derivative RPG (i.e. one based off another form of media: Star Wars, Star Trek, Indiana Jones, etc.) is going to be based around the core story and core characters. Star Wars Rebels is a perfect example of how characters can have their own heroic adventures and interact with the main characters without undercutting the core story of Star Wars.

I don't think that Rebels is a good example of that. IMO Rebels (and TCW before it) do undercut the core story of Star Wars (the films) in multiple ways. But they shouldn't, and I agree with your general point here about the game. As far as my 1e campaigns that diverged from the metaplot to exalt the PCs (which I talked about above), I've been there and done that. For a long time now I've much rather enjoyed making stories that support the films, even going as far as giving bonus points to players' PCs for creative ways of protecting the metaplot. There are still many ways to make the PC important to their story without diverging from the films (and without the PCs ever reaching film characters skill levels).

In the campaign I am preparing for my son now, the conclusion will be another part of the Battle of Endor not shown in the film, centered on the location of the actual shield generator (the big dish itself, not the film's control bunker connected to it underground some distance away) where something else has to happen to make Solo's strike team's demolition successful, something that Solo's team doesn't even know about - Failure would mean that the Rebels don't destroy the shield generator and thus don't destroy the Death Star. It will be very Tolkien and epic, but not in any way diminish the film heroes' accomplishments because their success is still required too. The future big campaign I am planning is an ANH prequel that will in part connect the prequel and classic trilogies in more ways than the anthology films do (even including some film characters as NPCs). It will be epic for the PCs while fully supporting the metaplot. Finding ways to accomplish this are challenging and fun.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I enjoy hearing how everyone else games. It may not change what I do, but then again it might. The stories you guys come up with are great.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:31 pm    Post subject: Re: A Starting Character Reply with quote

Whill wrote:

Whoa, you're taking that way out of context. We were taking about statting Luke, and that RC statement was an extrapolation about Skywalkers mostly in reference to Luke's starting Force potential and speed at improving Force skills. It was beyond what PCs can do in RAW. The purpose of the statement was to address a player trying to use Luke as a precedent for how much they can increase their Sense skill in a week. And like I also said in the same post, the purpose of the game is to create new stories starring new characters that seem like they could take place in the same universe as the films, not to retro-conform the film heroes to every single game rule for PCs (or even NPCs). A PC needing to take longer than Luke did to train in the Force does not mean the game is contradicting the films.



Oh, I understood what you meant in the first place, Whill. Smile

By way of example, I had a friend once (typical "role player" type... 33 years old, still living with parents, etc) who said something to the effect of "there is no point in playing Star Wars because you can't be Luke Skywalker."

On the other hand, when old Ben goes out to get some groceries (or whatever), who is watching over Luke? Imagine an adventure where the PCs (perhaps by mere serendipity) save baby Luke's life while Obi-Wan is busy with something else.

Or saving Leia's life, or whatever. Such an event serves two purposes: it anchors the PCs in the SWU, and it forever links their actions to the destruction of the Death Star, the defeat of the Emperor, etc.

Also, I have no problem (philosophically) retroactively subjugating the film heroes to the rules. It is, after all, those very heroes upon whom the rules are based. The RAW concerning dark side points, for example, are based on what we heard Yoda say about using the force and falling to the dark side.

Did GL intend to hint that Luke was being "dark" when he choked the gammorians? I speculate that he did not, and yet, we see that Luke has 2 (or however many) dark side points during RotJ. The reason I think that Luke was not having a moment of weakness in that scene is because there was no dramatic indicator that he was.

Whereas with Anakin, we have the sand people and his mother, and then, we have the scene where he kills Dooku, and the exchange between him and Palpatine... the internal struggle.

I get the sense from watching that scene that GL was simply trying to display the maturity of Luke's power since the last time we saw him, and using force choke was quieter than getting into a fight (note also that he did not have his lightsaber at the time either).

Anyway, the rules are built around the film characters, and, therefore, I have no issue subjecting them to such rules.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Putting the films to the test of your rules is a good measure for how well the rules are simulating the cinematic reality of the films. I do that all the time. For example, you really don't ever see any stormtroopers soak a blaster bolt until Phasma in TLJ, and it is established that her armor is special. You also never see a blaster get a definitive wound result on a stormtrooper (if they get back up after falling down, you never see that). And you see plenty of stormtroopers that fall down and do not get up the next "round", which in the game must mean a result of Incapacitated or worse.

I do not see that RAW really reflects the reality of the films in this respect. It is very easy to only wound stormtroopers. A 5D damage weapon vs. 3D strength to resist damage averages with a +7 which is a wound. With a 4D energy weapon on a stormtrooper, it's easy to get a stun result, which you also never see in the films. I've tweaked the damage/wound result chart to make it more damaging, but that still isn't enough to reflect what we see in the films. A lot of stormtroopers are incapacitated. So I've lowered the armor bonus to +1 against energy weapons and now I've got the average result down to Incapacitating stormtrooper with a 5D damage blaster. I'm ok with the wounds, stuns and soaks here and there if the average reflects the significant sample size we have in the films.

In the posts above, I just meant that you can stop short of recreating every scene in the films with the game rules because you only have to fully simulate the reality of the film universe for the PCs. And I say again (somewhat on topic), your PC not starting with as much Force potential as Luke and not improving his Force skills as fast as Luke does not mean that the game is broken or the rules are slacking. There are a million stormtroopers but only one Luke Skywalker. If a GM can't envision Luke as special (and perhaps even unique in the galaxy) and thus an exception to some Force rules in some ways, then I really question the GM's understanding of the Star Wars films this game is based on. PCs should be important and significant to their stories but Luke is the son of the Chosen One who blew up the Death Star.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I get it.

I just don't interpret Luke as any kind of "special." If the films did not portray him as tending to "fail upward" (the Jabba's skiff scene is an excellent example of what I mean here), I might agree that Luke is just better than everyone else.

It seems to me that Luke outshines his companions not because he is "a Skywalker" but merely because he can use the force, and they can't.

Given what I see in the films (and I go by the films exclusively... not even the film novelizations count in my SWU, since I just don't have the interest to read them), the only one who seems to be "special" is Anakin. It was he, after all, who did fulfill the prophecy and destroyed the Sith, bringing balance to the force.

I will concede that Luke could be "more powerful than average" but then, that's what a PC is, after all. Or do you hold the position that all Jedi are PC-level characters, and that Luke is yet a cut above them?

Caveat: I do believe that GL has declared Luke Skywalker as the most powerful of all Jedi ever (he did, didn't he?), and I respect that; but within the limits of the OT, I don't think he's nearly to that point yet, which is why I don't take issue with limiting him to the rules of the game, though I would make an exception for Anakin, whom the series goes out of it's way to portray as inherently more powerful (potentially) than the rest of the galaxy.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I just don't interpret Luke as any kind of "special." If the films did not portray him as tending to "fail upward" (the Jabba's skiff scene is an excellent example of what I mean here), I might agree that Luke is just better than everyone else.

It seems to me that Luke outshines his companions not because he is "a Skywalker" but merely because he can use the force, and they can't.

Given what I see in the films (and I go by the films exclusively... not even the film novelizations count in my SWU, since I just don't have the interest to read them), the only one who seems to be "special" is Anakin. It was he, after all, who did fulfill the prophecy and destroyed the Sith, bringing balance to the force.

I will concede that Luke could be "more powerful than average" but then, that's what a PC is, after all. Or do you hold the position that all Jedi are PC-level characters, and that Luke is yet a cut above them?

Caveat: I do believe that GL has declared Luke Skywalker as the most powerful of all Jedi ever (he did, didn't he?), and I respect that; but within the limits of the OT, I don't think he's nearly to that point yet, which is why I don't take issue with limiting him to the rules of the game, though I would make an exception for Anakin, whom the series goes out of it's way to portray as inherently more powerful (potentially) than the rest of the galaxy.

Above I wasn't speaking to Luke's max power. I was speaking to his starting Force ability and speed of learning. I'm pretty sure Lucas never said Luke is the most powerful of all Jedi, even back before the prequels. Yoda was portrayed as the most powerful, even though Anakin had more m-words than Yoda. Lucas expressed that Anakin has the potential to be the most powerful Force user, but he never quite lived up to that potential, even with Sith training from Palpatine. I think it is safe to say that Luke (and perhaps even Leia) may have had a similar potential, but I don't think Luke ever became as powerful as the prequel Jedi Masters (at least until TLJ). I feel that in RotJ, Luke wasn't as powerful as a prequel Jedi Knight. For Luke the requirement to be a full Knight wasn't power level but rather not crossing over to the Dark Side as his father had. When Yoda died there were no Jedi in the galaxy and the order hung by a thread until Luke later became a nominal Jedi Knight.

I think Anakin, Luke and Leia are all special. Luke "failing upward" is a result of that ("In my experience, there's no such thing as luck"). Luke inherited it from his father ("Oops... Whoa!"). I feel Jedi Knights and Luke in ANH are above starting PC level, but Jedi Knights are above Luke. Starting PCs could be padawans at some point. And I wouldn't even say Luke outshines his companions. By the sum of attribute and skills, Han, Chewie, and Leia are also way above starting PC level and comparable to Luke. In ANH, Han, Chewie, and Leia would probably all be more skilled than Luke overall. Yeah Luke is a lot more powerful in RotJ, but still not quite to prequel Jedi Knight ability.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to agree that Luke is the least experienced of the crew in the OT.
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