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Force Lightning/Electric Judgement
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:53 pm    Post subject: Force Lightning/Electric Judgement Reply with quote

Hi All galaxy Dwellers, back again.

Just had a little back and forth with a player of mine, who basically wants Plo Kloon's Electric Judgement.

what we eventually landed on was this.

We use force Lightning as it is, with the option of using a CP to make it either Lightning or the less lethal Judgement.
Sith naturally never use a cp to get it less than lethal, jedi have to and risk gaining a DSP

Also, so not to have the player(s) go ape and zap everything in sight, the Judgement CAN KILL, if dealing more than 3X enemy Stamina (or STR)

Thoughts?
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Working in security and talking to many cops, tasers are one of the best less-than-lethal options available. There are few more humane weapons available to mankind.

I have never thought that force lightning should give you a darkside point. How you use a power determines whether or not you get a darkside point in my games. To me, force lightning is using the force to enhance your body's natural ability to generate electricity. Like an electric eel.

Having said that, there is a line between pain compliance and torture. Torture gets a dark side point. Pain compliance does not.

If I was pressed to give an example, it would be of a police officer trying to arrest someone and they aren't complying. He has to stop them and doesn't want it to have to escalate to lethal. Time to use the taser.

Pain compliance is used to help a person who cannot stop themselves, or to protect society.

Torture is for fun.

That's my perspective, take it with a grain of salt.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If i ever was to allow electric judgement, i'd make it a willpower roll. Fail it and they do normal FL like damage, (and gain the DSP), make it and they can hold back to only being stun damage. However, even with using stun damage, you can imo go too far and still fry their nervous system.. So that 3x str rule still should stand.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kytross wrote:
Working in security and talking to many cops, tasers are one of the best less-than-lethal options available. There are few more humane weapons available to mankind.

I have never thought that force lightning should give you a darkside point. How you use a power determines whether or not you get a darkside point in my games. To me, force lightning is using the force to enhance your body's natural ability to generate electricity. Like an electric eel.

Having said that, there is a line between pain compliance and torture. Torture gets a dark side point. Pain compliance does not.

If I was pressed to give an example, it would be of a police officer trying to arrest someone and they aren't complying. He has to stop them and doesn't want it to have to escalate to lethal. Time to use the taser.

Pain compliance is used to help a person who cannot stop themselves, or to protect society.

Torture is for fun.

That's my perspective, take it with a grain of salt.


I've never interpreted force lighting as "electricity." It looks like lightning, so we call it "force lightning." But, per the lore, force lighting is a corruption of the force, and the only way to generate it is by tapping into the rage, anger, hate of the force wielder.

"Electric judgement" (a power that I interpret with a hefty dose of skepticism) is, IMO, a dubious attempt at making a "light side" version of a cool Sith power.

Also, with the prequel trilogy all said and done, it is clear that WEG's interpretation of "never for attack" is out dated.

Merely using the force to inflict damage on someone is clearly not what Yoda meant when he said "never for attack." In other words, a person who escalates force in defense of another is not "attacking" by Yoda's definition of "attack."

Therefore, if you feel that force lighting is not inherently evil (I tend to consider it an evil power), then eliminate the mandatory DSP, and just judge the player's use of it to determine whether they get one or not.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always saw the force lightning to be manifested dark energy.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm wondering about the Disable Droid power, though. Or even Mechu-Deru. That Mechu-Deru is Dark Side when it comes to (forcibly) altering living organisms, like making technobeasts, is something I can deal with. But that using Mechu-Deru on droids and other constructs without any presence in the living force is Dark Side? Does one get angry at one's own ignorance when presented with a droid CPU in order to harness Mechu-Deru? It seems weird.

Also, it seems Wookieepedia contradicts itself a bit given that it talks about Jedi tech specialists using Mechu-Deru - so it seems there's sanctioned use that isn't automatically Dark Side.
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, we've had this argument a few times on this forum over the decade I've been a member. Most people seem to view it as a corruption of the force.

We are all electro-chemical beings. Our nervous system is one gigantic circuit. We've all given people static shocks, or received them. Taking that information and applying it to the fantasy world of Star Wars, using the force to increase your body's natural capacity to generate electricity is a logical explanation of where the electricity comes from. Alter is used to direct the electricity to the target.

Yes I've read the WEG description. No, I've never agreed with it. I've always argued for it being electricity. I've read the initial description in the Heir to the Empire Sourcebook and the updated version in the Dark Force Rising sourcebook, which is the current description. Dark Force Rising is also where they created the power Combat Sense.

When they power was created in 1992, we had only seen Force Lightning used twice. Once in Return of the Jedi, and once in Heir to the Empire. It was in the Dark Force Rising sourcebook description that they added in the ability to block force lightning with a lightsaber, because Luke did it in the book, in his confrontation with Joruus C'Baoth. Other changes were made too, most notably changing the damage from 2D Alter to 1D damage, rounded down, in the original description to 1D Alter to 1D damage in the new description.

What I'm driving at is that the final description of the power was written after three uses of the power, twice in books that are no longer canon. We've seen force lightning used repeatedly since then and the more we see it the more it is obviously electricity. I haven't kept up with all the EU, but to the best of my knowledge it has never been used to kill people in the books or shows, only in the video games.

And before you mention Mace Windu, it wasn't the lightning that pushed him out the window, it was some form of telekinesis; possibly used in conjunction with force lightning.

But it's your game, do whatever works for you and makes the game fun for your players.
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Raven Redstar
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Did he die, though?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

I've never interpreted force lighting as "electricity." It looks like lightning, so we call it "force lightning." But, per the lore, force lighting is a corruption of the force, and the only way to generate it is by tapping into the rage, anger, hate of the force wielder.

"Electric judgement" (a power that I interpret with a hefty dose of skepticism) is, IMO, a dubious attempt at making a "light side" version of a cool Sith power.


Me and Naaman see eye to eye on this..
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
I always saw the force lightning to be manifested dark energy.

That's what I've always thought. It's just another flavor of Star Wars that tried to blur the lines between light and dark. I've said that Electric Judgement should have a light-side Force Choke alternative called "Righteous Respiratory Restriction."

It's some people's flavor of game, but not a game I'm likely to run.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One could maybe use CP to allow for the ability to end before killing.

So lets say telekinetic Kill, Vader's little hobby.
If used by a jedi, like Luke at Jabba's crib, the spent CP or CP(s) Forces the ability to end before it kills.

Note if exploited for torture rules for torture apply and gives dsp.

Using CP for this could allow for many of "Those" jedi skills
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The dark side of the force is a pathway to many powers that some would consider to be... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ...
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... unnatural."
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Na.. Natural. just weaalllly Weeevilllll!
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Electric Judgment only exists because a Jedi character in a video game was able to shoot lightning as his "special ability." Other games, such as the Dark Forces series allowed the game character to use Force Lightning as part of select character builds.

However, video games are generally not the best source insofar as canon accuracy. They are great for idea-mining, but just because a video game designer thought something would look cool is not a good reason to alter canon.

I am not opposed to the idea of blurring the line between WEG's Lightside and Darkside powers (with appropriate restrictions); in fact, I'm one of its most vocal proponents. For instance, a less restrictive version of TK Kill could be used to subdue a violent subject through the TK equivalent of a sleeper hold. I'm just very wary of applying this approach to powers like Force Lightning, as it is, IMO, in the same level as other corruption-of-the-Force powers like Waves of Darkness, Create Force Storm or Drain Life Energy.

My general approach has been to allow certain Darkside-only powers like TK Kill or Injure/Kill (as well as powers like Telekinesis that can earn a DSP if used to injure or kill someone) to moderate their effect - inflicting only Stun damage - on a successful Willpower roll (with a Difficulty equal to either the highest Force skill roll used to activate the power or the highest Difficulty of the power itself +5 - I haven't settled on which one yet). However, the risk is that, if you fail, the power inflicts full, normal damage, and the character picks up the DSP.

If I were to apply that rule to Force Lightning (essentially incorporating Electric Judgment into it), I'd apply a minimum +10 Difficulty Modifier to the Willpower roll.
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Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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