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Initiative and Combat
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Toric
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:10 am    Post subject: Initiative and Combat Reply with quote

So a couple of things came up in my game this past weekend that I thought I would try to get clarified here.

First off, I understand that initiative is determined by a roll of the highest Perception on each side and then the winning side decides whether to go first or second. This does seem to run pretty smoothly, but I have a couple of questions that came out of our first few combats.

If a character tries to activate lightsaber combat, the Control and Sense skill used to activate it are considered two actions. My question is, if the Jedi declares that he wants to activate lightsaber combat and attack with his lightsaber, that would be three actions, right? How does the timing of this work? For instance, if the first person to act in a round states the intention of taking two actions, say two blaster shots, he takes his first shot and then waits until the rest of his side has had a chance to take one action, and the other side to act once before getting his second shot. In the case of the Jedi activating lightsaber combat and attacking (three actions), does he only get to make the Control roll for his first action and then wait for everyone else to act once and then make the Sense roll for his second action and wait for everyone else to act a second time (assuming there are second actions) and then make his attack as a third action? Or does the Control and Sense roll happen at the same time as his first action, even though the rules treat this as two actions and then he would attack for his second action?

Once the Jedi has activated lightsaber combat, he can "keep it up" without rolling again, correct? And if he chooses to do so, that is still considered two actions right, using Sense and Control? And if he chooses to keep lightsaber combat up and attack once in a round, that is still three actions. Since the power is already activated, does he get to make the one attack as his first action or like I asked above, does he have to spend his first action "keeping his power up" and then attack on a subsequent second action?

My next question is regarding how movement fits into the action sequence. If a character declares that he wants to move cautiously and fire a single blaster shot in a round, does the move and shot happen as one action since moving cautiously doesn't count as an action? Or does he move on his first action and then shoot on a second action?

Related to the above regarding movement, what if a character declares a full move of ten meters and a shot with a blaster? Since moving a characters full movement is an action, does that happen as the first action, then all others involved in the combat take first actions and then the character takes his shot as a second action? Or does full movement, despite being considered an action, take place at the same time and the character gets to move ten meters and then fire as a single action.

Next, I know that drawing a weapon is considered an action. So lets say the character with the highest perception on the side that won initiative declares that he will draw his blaster and take one shot in the upcoming round. Does he draw his weapon ONLY as his first action and then after everyone else has had a first action and it comes back to him, he takes his second action then to fire? Or does he draw his weapon and fire on his first action? So if we had several combatants in a fight all drawing weapons and firing one shot, would we have a round of actions where everyone just draws weapons and then go around the order again where everyone fires or does drawing and firing happen on the same action just with the -1D penalty for two actions?

And lastly, aiming has to be the only action in a round to take advantage of the +1D shot in the next round right? So a character drawing a weapon wouldn't be able to aim that round. If a character only takes an aiming action and then has to make a dodge roll later in the round, does he lose the aiming bonus?

I think that's all my questions for the moment. Sometimes questions like these seem hard to word properly so hopefully these made sense.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Initiative and Combat Reply with quote

Toric wrote:
If a character tries to activate lightsaber combat, the Control and Sense skill used to activate it are considered two actions.


That is correct.. So activating it, and attacking would be 3 actions (PRIOR to even having to worry about any defensive reaction skills)..
Check out page 79-80 in the r&e rule book..

Toric wrote:
My question is, if the Jedi declares that he wants to activate lightsaber combat and attack with his lightsaber, that would be three actions, right? How does the timing of this work? For instance, if the first person to act in a round states the intention of taking two actions, say two blaster shots, he takes his first shot and then waits until the rest of his side has had a chance to take one action, and the other side to act once before getting his second shot. In the case of the Jedi activating lightsaber combat and attacking (three actions), does he only get to make the Control roll for his first action and then wait for everyone else to act once and then make the Sense roll for his second action and wait for everyone else to act a second time (assuming there are second actions) and then make his attack as a third action? Or does the Control and Sense roll happen at the same time as his first action, even though the rules treat this as two actions and then he would attack for his second action?


By the book, it would be
Action 1 - pc rolls control (OR sense, its always player's choice)
Action 2 - pc rolls the other force skill side, to finish activating the power
Action 3 - he now gets to attack with his lightsaber.

now if you scroll through the numerous threads in the official AND HR area, there are some who allow a pc to make ONE roll (using his lower force skill value) at a diff (of the highest force power requirement) to try and get it all done at once... However, those are house rules..

Toric wrote:
Once the Jedi has activated lightsaber combat, he can "keep it up" without rolling again, correct? And if he chooses to do so, that is still considered two actions right, using Sense and Control?


That is correct. So just keeping LS combat up, puts him at a -2d on any action he decides to do (2 actions for keeping LS combat up, and a third action for what ever he does)..

Toric wrote:
And if he chooses to keep lightsaber combat up and attack once in a round, that is still three actions. Since the power is already activated, does he get to make the one attack as his first action or like I asked above, does he have to spend his first action "keeping his power up" and then attack on a subsequent second action?


Negative. Maintaining a power up, even a force power that taps into all three force skills, does NOT count as taking an action, for INitiative order. All it counts in, is for MAPS (Multiple action penalties)... Check out 'free actions and no-roll actions (same pages as mentioned above)

Toric wrote:
My next question is regarding how movement fits into the action sequence. If a character declares that he wants to move cautiously and fire a single blaster shot in a round, does the move and shot happen as one action since moving cautiously doesn't count as an action? Or does he move on his first action and then shoot on a second action?


Since a cautious move, is a 1/2 move action, it would come at the same time as his blaster shot.. So he could (assuming a base move of 10) move 5 meters and roll his blaster shot.. OR do it the other way around.

Toric wrote:
Related to the above regarding movement, what if a character declares a full move of ten meters and a shot with a blaster? Since moving a characters full movement is an action, does that happen as the first action, then all others involved in the combat take first actions and then the character takes his shot as a second action? Or does full movement, despite being considered an action, take place at the same time and the character gets to move ten meters and then fire as a single action.


Yes, that would be a full action, in the initiative count order..
So lets say our hero in the first example, did a 1/2 move and shoot in round 1 at the Jedi, who was taking his time to activate his LS combat up..

In round 2, now the jedi has LS Combat up, the blaster weilder, wishes to stay CLEAR of him while still shooting, so he declares 2 actions.. A double move and a shoot..
Action 1 - NPC moves 20 meters
Action 2 - shoots blaster.

Toric wrote:
Next, I know that drawing a weapon is considered an action. So lets say the character with the highest perception on the side that won initiative declares that he will draw his blaster and take one shot in the upcoming round. Does he draw his weapon ONLY as his first action and then after everyone else has had a first action and it comes back to him, he takes his second action then to fire? Or does he draw his weapon and fire on his first action? So if we had several combatants in a fight all drawing weapons and firing one shot, would we have a round of actions where everyone just draws weapons and then go around the order again where everyone fires or does drawing and firing happen on the same action just with the -1D penalty for two actions?


Nope. Drawing a weapon, or switching it from kill to stun (or going the other way), is NOT considered an actual action in the initiative order, but it IS considered one for purposes of MAPS.. So that blaster wielder, could draw, and shoot all at once, but at -1d for having to draw his pistol.

Toric wrote:
And lastly, aiming has to be the only action in a round to take advantage of the +1D shot in the next round right? So a character drawing a weapon wouldn't be able to aim that round. If a character only takes an aiming action and then has to make a dodge roll later in the round, does he lose the aiming bonus?


Yes he would lose his aiming bonus, because he had to dodge.. As to the draw and aim? I am actually not sure if that would cause him to NOT be able to aim for the round, if he has to draw his weapon too..


Hope this helps..
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the info, garhkal!

So once the Jedi has lightsaber combat activated and decides to keep it up in subsequent rounds:

The Jedi declares that he is keeping lightsaber combat active and attacking with the lightsaber once. When it is his turn, he can just attack with the lightsaber on his first action because once lightsaber combat is active, keeping it up only costs MAPs and not an action, right? And that attack would be at -2D since keeping lightsaber combat active costs two actions and the attack would be a third?

Again, thanks for the reply!
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would seriously reconsider making things like LSC take three turns to bring into effect.


We have seen in films a Jedi draw a lightsaber, deflect a blaster bolt, and chop off an arm with great celerity.

I'd recommend treating LSC as a reaction skill, so that it will more accurately represent what we see in the films.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got to say, Toric, you've asked some really good questions. I saw the thread on my break at work. I'm glad to see that garhkal beat me to the answer.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toric wrote:
The Jedi declares that he is keeping lightsaber combat active and attacking with the lightsaber once. When it is his turn, he can just attack with the lightsaber on his first action because once lightsaber combat is active, keeping it up only costs MAPs and not an action, right? And that attack would be at -2D since keeping lightsaber combat active costs two actions and the attack would be a third?


REUP p.153 Lightsaber combat is a control and sense power and may be kept up. The Jedi may keep the power up, but loses −2D to all other actions because lightsaber combat requires two Force skills.

REUP p.165 If the Jedi is successful in using this power, she adds her sense dice to her lightsaber skill roll when attacking and parrying. The Jedi may add or subtract part or all of her control dice to the lightsaber's damage; players must decide how many control dice they are adding or subtracting when the power is activated.

REUP p.165 Example: Ana is entering combat: she has a lightsaber skill of 4D, a control of 5D and a sense of 4D+2. She activates lightsaber combat by making her Moderate control roll and her Easy sense roll; she decides to keep the power “up.” Since she is making both the control and sense rolls in the same round, each suffers a −1D penalty.

She adds her sense of 3D+2 (4D+2−1D) to her lightsaber skill roll of 4D, for a total lightsaber of 7D+2. She adds her control of 4D (5D−1D) to her lightsaber’s damage of 5D, for a total of 9D.

When Ana attacks in a round, that's another action, for an additional −1D to all actions (total penalty of −2D): she’d only roll 6D+2 to attack and would roll 8D for damage.


The part of LSC that always confused me is why would a character decide to place less than the full amount of Control into the damage dice pool? If Control dice are placed into the damage dice pool, does that mean those Control dice are not available for calling upon additional Force powers in the same round?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toric wrote:
Thanks for the info, garhkal!

So once the Jedi has lightsaber combat activated and decides to keep it up in subsequent rounds:

The Jedi declares that he is keeping lightsaber combat active and attacking with the lightsaber once. When it is his turn, he can just attack with the lightsaber on his first action because once lightsaber combat is active, keeping it up only costs MAPs and not an action, right? And that attack would be at -2D since keeping lightsaber combat active costs two actions and the attack would be a third?

Again, thanks for the reply!


Yup. Got it in one..

Which is why when fighting against jedi (sith), its alway best to hit them with ALL sorts of attacks, so each parry/dodge they are taking, reduces their die pool...

shootingwomprats wrote:

The part of LSC that always confused me is why would a character decide to place less than the full amount of Control into the damage dice pool?


To maim someone?? They are training??

shootingwomprats wrote:

If Control dice are placed into the damage dice pool, does that mean those Control dice are not available for calling upon additional Force powers in the same round?


Those dice are not actually "Placed" into the pool for damage. THey are just counted.. Much like Str is when using melee weapons..
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
Toric wrote:
The Jedi declares that he is keeping lightsaber combat active and attacking with the lightsaber once. When it is his turn, he can just attack with the lightsaber on his first action because once lightsaber combat is active, keeping it up only costs MAPs and not an action, right? And that attack would be at -2D since keeping lightsaber combat active costs two actions and the attack would be a third?


REUP p.153 Lightsaber combat is a control and sense power and may be kept up. The Jedi may keep the power up, but loses −2D to all other actions because lightsaber combat requires two Force skills.

REUP p.165 If the Jedi is successful in using this power, she adds her sense dice to her lightsaber skill roll when attacking and parrying. The Jedi may add or subtract part or all of her control dice to the lightsaber's damage; players must decide how many control dice they are adding or subtracting when the power is activated.

REUP p.165 Example: Ana is entering combat: she has a lightsaber skill of 4D, a control of 5D and a sense of 4D+2. She activates lightsaber combat by making her Moderate control roll and her Easy sense roll; she decides to keep the power “up.” Since she is making both the control and sense rolls in the same round, each suffers a −1D penalty.

She adds her sense of 3D+2 (4D+2−1D) to her lightsaber skill roll of 4D, for a total lightsaber of 7D+2. She adds her control of 4D (5D−1D) to her lightsaber’s damage of 5D, for a total of 9D.

When Ana attacks in a round, that's another action, for an additional −1D to all actions (total penalty of −2D): she’d only roll 6D+2 to attack and would roll 8D for damage.


The part of LSC that always confused me is why would a character decide to place less than the full amount of Control into the damage dice pool? If Control dice are placed into the damage dice pool, does that mean those Control dice are not available for calling upon additional Force powers in the same round?


It's not a dice "pool." Rather, the characters total control skill is an indicator of how good at dealing damage he is with his lightsaber (garhkal's comparison to adding "strength" is right on. Just think of it as the "attribute" that adds to the weapon's base damage, but with no maximum).

Also, LSC does not "accumulate" penalties. You roll one reaction per round, and that's it. It's only one action and all attacks that target you roll against that single reaction roll. The only way to force an additional MAP for reactions is to use an attack that requires a different reaction skill (an attack that would trigger a dodge roll, such as a thermal detonator).

By RAW, unless the attack cannot be defeated by a lightsaber, then the Jedi need only roll Lightsaber (as a reaction) once per round and he is protected against all brawling, melee combat, blaster/slugthrower and thrown weapons attacks made against him. A flame thrower or grenade (or some kind of force power that cannot be defeated by a "parry") could also trigger an additional MAP by forcing a reaction skill that isn't lightsaber to be rolled.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

By RAW, unless the attack cannot be defeated by a lightsaber, then the Jedi need only roll Lightsaber (as a reaction) once per round and he is protected against all brawling, melee combat, blaster/slugthrower and thrown weapons attacks made against him. A flame thrower or grenade (or some kind of force power that cannot be defeated by a "parry") could also trigger an additional MAP by forcing a reaction skill that isn't lightsaber to be rolled.


If one shoots a blaster, and someone else tosses a spear, both are dodges sure. BUT both should be their OWN reaction.. Same with a Melee/brawl attack, each should be its OWN parry roll required.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's fine if you run it that way. But in the "official" rules section, I figure it's worth mentioning that it doesn't actually work that way by RAW, nor does it seem to be in the spirit of the rules.

My mention of LSC functioning like a reaction skill (able to be rolled instantly without affecting the timing of the following attack) seems to be more in line with the actual intent of the rules (that is, to replicate what we see on screen).
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though my players tended to bring LSC up before they thought fighting was going to begin. As in, if they expected things to go pear shaped, they'd have it readied in case it did.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
That's fine if you run it that way. But in the "official" rules section, I figure it's worth mentioning that it doesn't actually work that way by RAW, nor does it seem to be in the spirit of the rules..


I am basing it off the following..
Page 39
Quote:
Brawling parry is a reaction skill, used to avoid being hit by a brawling OR melee combat attack.

Lighsaber can also be used as a reaction skill to parry brawling, lightsaber and melee attacks. Jedi can also use it to parry blaster bolts.

Melee parry is the reaction skill used if a character has a melee weapon, and is attacked by a melee combat, brawling or lightsaber attack.


Sure seems like if i am brawling you and someone else is meleeing you, you would need to make two brawl parry rolls.. One vs him, one vs me.. So i fail to see how LS combat is different, when it just explains it can be used against all of those types of attacks. NOT that making one parry roll is good vs all attacks..
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire wrote:
Though my players tended to bring LSC up before they thought fighting was going to begin. As in, if they expected things to go pear shaped, they'd have it readied in case it did.


Yes. But to ME it defeats the spirit of the rules. It's kind of annoying when players run around with (for example) weapons drawn "just in case" or the sleep in their armor "just in case."

Activating LSC in advance is a step in the wrong direction both narritively and dramtically speaking, in my opinion.


Last edited by Naaman on Thu Jul 19, 2018 10:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Naaman wrote:
That's fine if you run it that way. But in the "official" rules section, I figure it's worth mentioning that it doesn't actually work that way by RAW, nor does it seem to be in the spirit of the rules..


I am basing it off the following..
Page 39
Quote:
Brawling parry is a reaction skill, used to avoid being hit by a brawling OR melee combat attack.

Lighsaber can also be used as a reaction skill to parry brawling, lightsaber and melee attacks. Jedi can also use it to parry blaster bolts.

Melee parry is the reaction skill used if a character has a melee weapon, and is attacked by a melee combat, brawling or lightsaber attack.


Sure seems like if i am brawling you and someone else is meleeing you, you would need to make two brawl parry rolls.. One vs him, one vs me.. So i fail to see how LS combat is different, when it just explains it can be used against all of those types of attacks. NOT that making one parry roll is good vs all attacks..


Nah, man. Reaction skills dont work that way. No matter how many attackers, if their attacks trigger the same reaction skill, you only roll once. Otherwise, you'll never get to attack on your own turn (if enough attackers, they can "MAP" you to death). 10 dudes with a skill of 1D each would reduce a defender with 9D to the point that he literally cannot react to the 10th attack.

It would defeat the purpose of combined actions, as well. When multiple shooters (for example) combine, they get 1 additional pip per shooter (note how a pip does not come close to cancelling out a MAP), so it would take four total shooters to overcome a 1D difference.

Also, see the side bar on page 79 called "reaction skills."

In particular, it says: "the reaction skill is in effect for the rest of the round and it replaces the original difficulty number."

On another note, the rules actually do say that the control dice do reduce with MAPs when added to lightsaber damage (see page 148), however, it seems like they should not be able to reduce the lightsaber below 5D damage... so if you only have 3D in control and decide to attack and parry with your lightsaber, you may as well not have LSC up (other than that it allows you to deflect blasters... but your actual rolls are just as if you hadn't activated it... and all other rolls also suffer the -2D penalty). I rather don't like this concept, since it seems awkward and clunky and too much bookkeeping in combat... but it IS the official writing of the rules.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
It's kind of annoying when players run around with (for example) weapons drawn "just in case" or the sleep in their armor "just in case..


That is one reason ADND had rules in place for 'sleeping in armor', and info on how to set up weapon restrictions in towns..
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