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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is that Disney wanted to create the new movies in the mold of the original trilogy. They wanted to show desperate Rebels fighting an overwhelming force.

But they still had to deal with Return of the Jedi, so they tried to figure a way to return to the Rebels and the Rebellion--because that's the core of what Star Wars is--thinking that's what the public wants.

And, most do, I would say.

In addition, they wanted a blank slate--free rein to do what they wanted with brand new characters, not held back by anything that had come before.

That's what we have!

The EU doesn't count anymore. All of the original heroes have been killed off (it will be interesting to see how they handle Leia), and at this moment in the franchise, the First Order has successfully replaced the Empire.

I'd bet money that, in Episode IX, it won't be a Return of the Jedi. Sure, there will be a successful Climax for the Rebels, but it won't be all-out Victory and a return to the New Republic.

I think we're going to go on for several movies fighting this war.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I mean, we've never seen another YT-1300 even in the background of the nine Star Wars films to date.

That's incorrect. There are YT-1300s in the background on Naboo when the refugee ship carrying Padme, Anakin and Artoo lands.

I thought there was another YT-1300 landing on Coruscant in RotS, but found out that actually was the Falcon (in both Legends and Canon), so AotC remains the only film to show non-Falcon YT-1300s.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
And now here we are, three movies in, where ALL the action takes place close to well-traveled, high-Speed routes? Where one of the “sides” deliberately looks for out-of-the-way hiding spots to protect themselves from their massively powerful opponent that would crush them if only it could find them?

BS.

Maybe it would happen on occasion, but not every single time.


Here's a quote from the First Edition Core Rulebook, page 58: "Theoretically, a starship can travel at practically infinite speeds. A well equipped starship can travel from one side of the galaxy to another in a matter of hours or days*. The distance to the destination isn't the controlling factor--it's the difficulty of the trip."



*The actual text reads "days" and "weeks", but in the errata to the book, those travel times were changed to "hours" and "days". The shorter units have remained in the game throughout the ruleset.

Looking at the Astrogation Gazetteer, none of the base times are multiple days long.

Alderaan to...

Yavin is 12 hrs.
Tatooine is 7 hrs.
Endor is 18 hrs.
Dantooine is 13 hrs.
Dagobah is the longest, at 30 hrs.
Corellia is 6 hrs.
Bespin is 8 hrs.

Then, consider that we're talking about spacers with high Astrogation skills, and that time goes down. Way down.



My point: is that the idea of very quick travel is not new to the SW universe. Here, it shows up in the RPG with the 1987 Core Rulebook way before the prequels, the new movies, or even the second edition to the RPG.

It's a thought that's been around a long, long time.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And my point, which you seem intent on avoiding, is that it gets pretty suspicious when that just happens to apply to ALL hyperspace jumps in the first three Disney films. Even those where there is enough leeway that a jump over a short distance would explain a short duration jump, the Story Group steps in and deliberately places the endpoints of the jump on opposite sides of the galaxy. That's an unforced error on their part.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Looking at the Astrogation Gazetteer, none of the base times are multiple days long.

Look again. There are multiple jumps listed that are of two or more days in length, including one that is close to a SWU month (35 days).
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
And my point, which you seem intent on avoiding, is that it gets pretty suspicious when that just happens to apply to ALL hyperspace jumps in the first three Disney films.


How many hyperspace jumps is that?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Look again. There are multiple jumps listed that are of two or more days in length, including one that is close to a SWU month (35 days).


Well, I'm looking at the Gazetteer in the First Edition Core Rulebook, so the longest is 32 hrs. But, I'm well aware that there are several other Gazetteers in the other core rulebooks, on the various gamemaster screens, and in various supplements and adventures showing different worlds.

I'm glad, BTW, that there are a couple with very long travel times. It makes sense to have a few examples of those.

But the point, with all the Gazetteers, is that most worlds are reached in hours--all over the galaxy--pretty quickly.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
[>0]

^^^Finite Math


I never said that there was no single example, or a few examples, of worlds with long journey times. In fact, I said that I'm glad that there were examples of such.

But, the majority of travel times are short, within hours, and that seems to fit with the films, new and old.

My point is that the fast hyperspace travel is not something new that Abrams did--it's been in the universe, as displayed in the game, for decades--since the first film.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now take the travel times and double them to account for the fact that hyperdrives x2 or slower are far more common than those of x1 or higher.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I never said that there was no single example, or a few examples, of worlds with long journey times.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Looking at the Astrogation Gazetteer, none of the base times are multiple days long.

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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
My guess is that Disney wanted to create the new movies in the mold of the original trilogy. They wanted to show desperate Rebels fighting an overwhelming force.

But they still had to deal with Return of the Jedi, so they tried to figure a way to return to the Rebels and the Rebellion--because that's the core of what Star Wars is--thinking that's what the public wants.

And, most do, I would say.

In addition, they wanted a blank slate--free rein to do what they wanted with brand new characters, not held back by anything that had come before.

That's what we have!

The EU doesn't count anymore. All of the original heroes have been killed off (it will be interesting to see how they handle Leia), and at this moment in the franchise, the First Order has successfully replaced the Empire.

I'd bet money that, in Episode IX, it won't be a Return of the Jedi. Sure, there will be a successful Climax for the Rebels, but it won't be all-out Victory and a return to the New Republic.

I think we're going to go on for several movies fighting this war.


I have said exactly this elsewhere. I think people are expecting that, as with ROTJ and the OT, the story will end all wrapped up with a bow on it.

And, well...you know what Luke said.

I think it makes far more sense, both narratively and financially, to do exactly that.

Narratively, wrapping up the utter defeat of the FO in a single film, given their position at the end of TLJ, makes zero sense unless you include a time jump and a whooooooooooole lotta stuff happening in the interim. They could do it, of course, claiming that it's been 3 years (or 2 years) since the Battle of Crait and Luke Skywalker's Last Stand, and rebellion has sparked all across the galaxy blah blah blah, but realistically...yeah that's a reach.

Financially, it makes sense because why end a good thing now, when you can continue it into an exciting new series, and then take it wherever after that? The leads in the new films are great. Very charismatic, accessible to a wider audience than before, and great actors to boot. At the very least, I'd say they all have another trilogy in 'em. Plus, you could really develop the characters over the course of the next trilogy.

I'm making wild-@$$ guesses here, but I think if you look at the focus of the new trilogy films themselves, it becomes clear that this story is chiefly about two characters who are effectively mirror images of each other: Rey and Ben/Kylo. Ben is waaaaay more than just a monster in a mask, and TLJ goes a long way in underscoring how complex a figure he is. What I could see as the end of Ep. IX is that Ben loses his grip on the FO (or lets go of it), and power is usurped by someone else. Possibly new dark side users -- I mean, we still have the Knights of Ren -- but possibly someone else entirely. Anyway, Ben is taken out of control, and the First Order is briefly leaderless and squabbles within itself until someone new asserts control, which provides the space for the New Rebellion to gain ground and position to fight back in earnest.

And Ben would then not die at the end of Ep. IX, but rather would survive and have to confront his misdeeds. We've never seen that in a Star Wars film. We see Anakin's fall in the PT, and we see Anakin as Vader turn to good in the OT, but we don't see what comes AFTER you turn back to good or at least away from evil. How do you reconcile your crimes with your desire to be good? What does that mean for you? Where do you go from there? Basically, Ben could be a really compelling antihero or almost a "fallen villain" who still isn't quite "good." I think that's way, way more interesting than just him being a Vader clone and dying while saying "You were right, Rey....you were right.....>gack<....*"
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solo4114 wrote:
I have said exactly this elsewhere. I think people are expecting that, as with ROTJ and the OT, the story will end all wrapped up with a bow on it.

And, well...you know what Luke said.

I think it makes far more sense, both narratively and financially, to do exactly that.

Narratively, wrapping up the utter defeat of the FO in a single film, given their position at the end of TLJ, makes zero sense unless you include a time jump and a whooooooooooole lotta stuff happening in the interim. They could do it, of course, claiming that it's been 3 years (or 2 years) since the Battle of Crait and Luke Skywalker's Last Stand, and rebellion has sparked all across the galaxy blah blah blah, but realistically...yeah that's a reach.

Financially, it makes sense because why end a good thing now, when you can continue it into an exciting new series, and then take it wherever after that? The leads in the new films are great. Very charismatic, accessible to a wider audience than before, and great actors to boot. At the very least, I'd say they all have another trilogy in 'em. Plus, you could really develop the characters over the course of the next trilogy.

I'm making wild-@$$ guesses here, but I think if you look at the focus of the new trilogy films themselves, it becomes clear that this story is chiefly about two characters who are effectively mirror images of each other: Rey and Ben/Kylo. Ben is waaaaay more than just a monster in a mask, and TLJ goes a long way in underscoring how complex a figure he is. What I could see as the end of Ep. IX is that Ben loses his grip on the FO (or lets go of it), and power is usurped by someone else. Possibly new dark side users -- I mean, we still have the Knights of Ren -- but possibly someone else entirely. Anyway, Ben is taken out of control, and the First Order is briefly leaderless and squabbles within itself until someone new asserts control, which provides the space for the New Rebellion to gain ground and position to fight back in earnest.

And Ben would then not die at the end of Ep. IX, but rather would survive and have to confront his misdeeds. We've never seen that in a Star Wars film. We see Anakin's fall in the PT, and we see Anakin as Vader turn to good in the OT, but we don't see what comes AFTER you turn back to good or at least away from evil. How do you reconcile your crimes with your desire to be good? What does that mean for you? Where do you go from there? Basically, Ben could be a really compelling antihero or almost a "fallen villain" who still isn't quite "good." I think that's way, way more interesting than just him being a Vader clone and dying while saying "You were right, Rey....you were right.....>gack<....*"


Yeah, more Star Wars movies in the future as a result of the open ends that could be left by Ep IX seems like a distinct possibility. Even more so when you consider that Rian Johnson was given the green light to have full creative control over an entirely new trilogy.

As for Kylo Ren, after everything he's done in Ep. VIII and IX, he seems completely irredeemable to me, a fact that was lampshaded by even Leia, his own mother ("I know my son is gone.") He's too far gone to be an anti-hero (or even an anti-villain), but there might still be story potential for him to fight against usurpers in the First Order. Hell, considering his humiliation by Luke at the Battle of Crait, I'm wondering if any of the Knights of Ren are going to turn on Kylo and try to usurp him.

Yeah, Kylo Ren is now the irredeemable Big Bad of the sequel trilogy so any attempt by the writers to have him go through a Heel-Face Turn is going to be universally panned by the fans. I can't see him become an anti-hero or anti-villain after murdering his own father and especially after refusing to stop destroying the Resistance once he usurped Snoke. Kylo Ren had his moment to redeem himself and refused it utterly. He lost his chance and he's never going to get (nor should he get) another one.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before TLJ, you might have been able to pull a Heel-Face turn. After TLJ, I see that as less feasible than saying that the Resistance somehow pulls it out of the fire.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I never said that there was no single example, or a few examples, of worlds with long journey times.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Looking at the Astrogation Gazetteer, none of the base times are multiple days long.


In the second quote, I was referring to the original game Gazetteer, in the First Edition rulebook. Maybe I didn't make that clear.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought that after this sequel trilogy they would take a break and then come back to Rey's story for a new trilogy. Then I read something from Daisy Ridley implying that Episode IX was it for her, and we have this news of two separate SW film series unrelated to the previous three trilogies being in the works, so it looks like they will alternate these two series to maintain the annual schedule. But I still think it is likely they will eventually return to Rey's story when she is a little older.
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