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Falconer
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This made the rounds a few weeks ago, from a translation of an interview of Daisy Ridley in a French magazine:

Quote:
Q: Was Rey’s fate already planned by J.J. Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan as soon as the idea of Episode VII became official ?

DR: Here’s what I think I know. JJ wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII & IX. Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote TLJ entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realizes his film in his own way. Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didn’t keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII.

I’d love to someday see Abrams’ original drafts of Ep. 8-9. I like TFA, and I continue to be interested in a congruous continuation. Up until this we had never had word that he had even done this much groundwork for the rest of the trilogy. Who knows? It could be false.
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Whill
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falconer wrote:
This made the rounds a few weeks ago, from a translation of an interview of Daisy Ridley in a French magazine:

Quote:
Q: Was Rey’s fate already planned by J.J. Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan as soon as the idea of Episode VII became official ?

DR: Here’s what I think I know. JJ wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII & IX. Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote TLJ entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realizes his film in his own way. Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didn’t keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII.

I’d love to someday see Abrams’ original drafts of Ep. 8-9. I like TFA, and I continue to be interested in a congruous continuation. Up until this we had never had word that he had even done this much groundwork for the rest of the trilogy. Who knows? It could be false.

I think that is pretty much true. Of note is the fact that even though Abrams made a trilogy outline up front, the other directors were pointedly not beholden to it for VIII and IX. Lucasfilm wanted each sequel trilogy episode director to not feel in any way constrained creatively. Abrams has said that while he was making TFA and Johnson was developing TLJ, they met and discussed each of their ideas. They shared but both were still free to do what they wanted in their own films. Abrams said that every now and then while making TFA, little requests for tweaks and changes from Johnson came through and he honored most of them, but the ones he rejected were because they felt wrong for TFA. So yes, Johnson did have an influence on TFA, but according to Abrams this was very minimal. I think that one little thing Johnson probably asked for and Abrams rejected was not having Luke wearing Jedi robes when Rey came to him because it really makes no sense for Johnson's Luke in TLJ to be wearing them when she arrives. If my theory is correct, Abrams' core concept for Rey's ultimate identity may have been upheld by Johnson and furthered some by the dark cave vision sequence.
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Falconer wrote:
This made the rounds a few weeks ago, from a translation of an interview of Daisy Ridley in a French magazine:

Quote:
Q: Was Rey’s fate already planned by J.J. Abrams and Lawrence Kasdan as soon as the idea of Episode VII became official ?

DR: Here’s what I think I know. JJ wrote Episode VII, as well as drafts for VIII & IX. Then Rian Johnson arrived and wrote TLJ entirely. I believe there was some sort of general consensus on the main lines of the trilogy, but apart from that, every director writes and realizes his film in his own way. Rian Johnson and JJ Abrams met to discuss all of this, although Episode VIII is still his very own work. I believe Rian didn’t keep anything from the first draft of Episode VIII.

I’d love to someday see Abrams’ original drafts of Ep. 8-9. I like TFA, and I continue to be interested in a congruous continuation. Up until this we had never had word that he had even done this much groundwork for the rest of the trilogy. Who knows? It could be false.

I think that is pretty much true. Of note is the fact that even though Abrams made a trilogy outline up front, the other directors were pointedly not beholden to it for VIII and IX. Lucasfilm wanted each sequel trilogy episode director to not feel in any way constrained creatively. Abrams has said that while he was making TFA and Johnson was developing TLJ, they met and discussed each of their ideas. They shared but both were still free to do what they wanted in their own films. Abrams said that every now and then while making TFA, little requests for tweaks and changes from Johnson came through and he honored most of them, but the ones he rejected were because they felt wrong for TFA. So yes, Johnson did have an influence on TFA, but according to Abrams this was very minimal. I think that one little thing Johnson probably asked for and Abrams rejected was not having Luke wearing Jedi robes when Rey came to him because it really makes no sense for Johnson's Luke in TLJ to be wearing them when she arrives. If my theory is correct, Abrams' core concept for Rey's ultimate identity may have been upheld by Johnson and furthered some by the dark cave vision sequence.


That's where I end up as well. I doubt that Abrams' story for Rey was "And she's a Kenobiwalker! She's the daughter of Luke Skywalker's daughter, and Obi-Wan Kenobi's grandson!" (or whathaveyou). I think it's more likely that either (A) Abrams didn't really have a core plan for who her parents would be or why she was so strong in the force, or (B) Abrams' idea was exactly what ended up on screen -- that the Force "chose" Rey itself, and that her parents are ultimately not important and audiences just got fixated on the wrong thing.
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Falconer
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still believe the internal evidence in TFA is strong enough to assert that Abrams intended her to be Luke’s clone (sister). I do think letting the following directors decide for themselves was part of the deal, but, nevertheless if he had an outline, he did have some sort of idea of his own. Johnson seems to delight in subverting audience expectations, and people wouldn’t see this as a subversion if not for Abrams setting up those expectations (uncynically, as I believe).
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falconer wrote:
I still believe the internal evidence in TFA is strong enough to assert that Abrams intended her to be Luke’s clone (sister). I do think letting the following directors decide for themselves was part of the deal, but, nevertheless if he had an outline, he did have some sort of idea of his own. Johnson seems to delight in subverting audience expectations, and people wouldn’t see this as a subversion if not for Abrams setting up those expectations (uncynically, as I believe).


Hang on. What's the evidence that Abrams intended her to be Luke's clone sister? I've literally never heard that.
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Falconer
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here…
Falconer wrote:
Okay, so, I think Rey being Han & Leia’s daughter (and the villain’s sister) is the most convincing of the mainstream, obvious explanations, but, here’s something else to mull around.

How about Rey being Luke’s sister?

Have you ever seen the old rumors of the original 9-Episode outline that got worked out by George Lucas and Gary Kurtz, circa the production of ESB? Episodes 7-9 were supposed to feature the Another Hope mentioned in ESB, and that was supposed to be Luke’s sister; not Leia, but a new character. What are the chances they just stuck to the outline?

There are some obvious problems — her age and how exactly Vader could have sired her — but, this being science fiction, with its Spaarti cylinders and Carbonite freezing and whatever else, just about anything is explainable. Anyway, there has to be something science fictioney going on in the first place, to explain her freakish Force proficiency and piloting proficiency and everything else weird going on with her. Maybe the “There’s been an awakening” that Snoke speaks of is literal.

So, anyway, the only real question is whether it works dramatically.

Since she was left on Jakku in the hands of Unkar Plutt, it’s hard to believe she was left there by any good guys. Plutt is no grouch-with-a-heart-of-gold, he’s clearly an Imperial agent or at least collaborator. It’s easier to believe the bad guys left her there.

Does this theory jive with how the various characters react to her? With Ben’s jealousy towards her? With Luke’s “Huh.” expression on his face? With Leia’s hug?


And here…
Falconer wrote:
I pondered the question of where exactly Luke’s sister came from, and came up with this variant theory. I mentioned before that Spaarti Cylinders (cloning technology) is one possible solution.

Luke’s blue lightsaber that he lost at Cloud City was found… and so was the severed hand that had gripped it. Rey is that hand. In a manner of speaking, ahem. The hand was used—by whom, we don’t know—to create a clone of Luke, modified to be a woman instead of a man—why, we don’t know. The clone possessed all the training that Luke had accumulated by the time that he lost his hand—such as expert piloting, and extensive Force abilities. When she is finally reunited with the lightsaber,



she instantly has a Force Vision—of Luke’s battle with Darth Vader at Cloud City.



Then she falls down as we hear Luke’s scream (from the scene in ESB when his hand is cut off). Then she sees this—zooming in on Luke’s prosthetic hand:



Alright, so, as everyone knows, she more or less goes through the whole of TFA recapping Luke’s SW+ESB adventures: flying with Han (and him even offering her a job), blowing up a Death Star, having a lightsaber battle with a Darth, warm fuzzies with Leia. Big obvious exception: no training. And the movie ends with a focus on a lightsaber… and a hand gripping it… and the meaning obviously not lost on Luke.



One more thing. Remember this trailer? It has that poignant voiceover, “The Force is strong in my family. My father has it, I have it, my sister has it. You have that power, too.” [I had an additional observation to make, in the original post, but it was debunked.]
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falconer wrote:
I still believe the internal evidence in TFA is strong enough to assert that Abrams intended her to be Luke’s clone (sister).


Or, Vader's clone.
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, ok. So, we have speculation, but not actual proof. It's an interesting theory (a bit "Luuke Skywalker" though). I've also heard that Rey and Ben are two split aspects of Anakin's soul, reincarnated in separate bodies. I think that one's a bit far-fetched.

Personally, I like the answer we have (for the time being), which is that Rey is...just Rey. She has these powers because of the Force, and the Force chose her because she is ultimately good (which is different from "Light," but related). This is diametrically opposed to Snoke and his vision of the Force as being a matter of strong bloodlines (hence a good reason to seduce Ben to the Dark Side).


I recently watched the Mortis arc in Clone Wars and....whoa man is that stuff interesting! It strongly (to me) suggests a vision of the Force that is a matter of balance primarily, and that destroying the balance produces a Force in chaos. Usually that's because evil and the Dark Side has triumphed and is running rampant, at which point the Light Side must rise again to balance matters. But it can also occur with the Light Side reigning triumphant and essentially stifling that which is Dark -- this being the legacy of the Jedi of the Old Republic. That, too, was a failure of balance, given how the Jedi comported themselves and how they related to the Force.

Anakin was the "Chosen One" who brought balance to the Force, given that he destroyed the Jedi, and then destroyed the Sith. So, basically, he hit a giant Force Reset Button, and set things back. Luke was the first new Jedi to come out of that period, and although he maintained some semblance of balance, the Dark Side rose once again, and manipulated Ben into turning to evil and again destroying the Jedi, upsetting what fragile balance existed at the time. This, in turn, "awakended" the Force in Rey (which had always been there, according to her).

But whereas Anakin turned to evil because of his inability to let go of attachments, Rey seems more balanced, and her experiences on Ach-To -- a place of balance, rather than of extreme light or dark -- may balance her further still. It's also worth noting (to me) that Rey fights with incredible passion. She allows herself to feel aggression, rather than denying it, but she doesn't let it control her the way it did Anakin.

I think the "spiritual Skywalker" is perhaps a bit literal of a reading for my tastes, and I would prefer that she not LITERALLY be Anakin reincarnated, but rather that she is occupying the place that Anakin once occupied, filling that role. Alternatively, she AND Ben might be those aspects of Anakin, and their relationship is ultimately what must bring balance to the Force, with Rey being a more "middle ground" version of "The Daughter" and Ben being a more "middle ground" (once he has his face heel-turn) version of "The Son"), and neither taking the place of "The Father," but rather coexisting to maintain that balance. this would have Ben having tasted more of the Dark than Rey, and Rey having tasted more of the Light than Ben. With Ben being more "evil" (or prone to evil), and Rey being more "good".

Basically, I just hope they don't do something quite as literal as "Rey is a Skywalker" either in a spiritual or sci-fi (cloned hand) sense. I'd prefer it more that Rey now embodies the role that Anakin did, and can bring balance back to the Force.
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Falconer
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope she’s not Darth Vader. He was an okay villain, but all this obsession with him over the past two decades, and treating him as the Jesus Christ of Star Wars, I find it very tiresome.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solo4114 wrote:
Personally, I like the answer we have (for the time being), which is that Rey is...just Rey.


I still think that she's a Skywalker, but there is a moment in the novelization, when Kylo Ren freezes her stiff on Takonada, he says something to the effect of, "What's so special about you? You're just a Jakku junk scavenger.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not Leia's clone?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falconer wrote:



I find it very intriguing that in Rey's vision Rey has Vader's point of view and not Luke's/Luke's hand's/the blue lightsaber's point of view. And did no one else notice that Rey's right shoulder wound in BH's throne room matches where Luke landed a blow on Vader with his blue lightsaber (right before Vader cut off Luke's hand)? Meaningless coincidence? Or designed symbolism?

Rey being a clone of Luke or Vader or Leia doesn't sit well with me because Luke or Vader or Leia wouldn't be really special and unique if they can just be fully cloned. We don't have any film evidence that Force sensitivity can be cloned, and it begs the question: If Force sensitivity can be cloned why hasn't there been Force sensitive clones? In my SWU the M-words sabotage the cloning of Force-sensitivity, or at least M-words can't be cloned in great numbers, leaving the clone non-Force-sensitive. (Darth Maul coming back to life in TCW after his bisection and falls in TPM is ridiculous, but in my SWU I might be ok with Maul coming back in the form of a non-Force-sensitive clone.)
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Falconer
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m not sure. If you compare those two frames, she is in the same position as Vader in the frame, but, those are just two frames among many frames from both scenes. If you look carefully at the background, they are not in the same actual place in Cloud City. It seems if you watch the shot that she can hear Luke and Vader off elsewhere, and she can hear Luke’s “No!”
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falconer wrote:
I’m not sure. If you compare those two frames, she is in the same position as Vader in the frame, but, those are just two frames among many frames from both scenes. If you look carefully at the background, they are not in the same actual place in Cloud City. It seems if you watch the shot that she can hear Luke and Vader off elsewhere, and she can hear Luke’s “No!”

True, it is not an identical shot. But it seems that TESB shot is clearly the main reference for that TFA shot, and I feel confident that is intentional by design. But as far as how different or similar the "place" is, the place in Rey's vision may not actually exist as-is because it is just a Force vision sequence. Luke didn't really battle Vader on Dagobah, and there weren't really multiple Rey's existing at the same time in the cave in TLJ.

I'm not saying Rey isn't a cross-gendered clone of Luke. This discussion is all just speculation.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I can see Hosnian Prime blowing up from my house" was pretty egregious stuff.

My criticisms of new films has little to do with my perceptions that were founded on the EU. They're repetitive, the characters lack believable motivation (Luke saw his family turned into charred skeletons on screen, that's some motivation for ya) the background is vague and unconvincing... it goes on and on.

This is not me being biased against them for being new, I loved R1.

The new films largely lack the film making components that made the first 3 successful. Gone is the genuine nostalgia* from Lucas for the 50's and 60's that tinted the original work with a sense of sincerity. There is not enough of the faux-foreign film vibe, or the unexplained past relationships, etc. to keep up the sense of mystique that kept us wanting more or the aspects of the Vietnam war that kept popping up. There was a sincerity to the artistic process that is largely gone from the prequels and other new films.

*Funny how much of that generation's artistic success hinged on selling nostalgia for the 50's and 60's. See also Stephen King, Garrison Keillor.
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