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Letting Go...
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Daisy had a Rolling Stone interview that characterized her as saying she was done after Ep. IX, but she walked that back by saying she loves what she's doing and thinks acting in Star Wars movies is awesome (basically suggesting she'd be game for more). So, I don't think we can say one way or the other about Rey.

Re: Ben and whether he can be redeemed, I don't mean that he's capable of it in even a single film, or even that he's ever completely redeemed. But rather that the door is opened and Rey shows him mercy. I think the end of TLJ strongly suggests that Ben has embraced evil, but Rey has this look to her that she wishes he could be brought around, and I don't see her giving that up necessarily, if there's a chance he could be convinced to walk away from evil.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ben is still conflicted. He got closer to the Dark Side when he chose to take over the First Order instead of join Rey.

But, also, he couldn't pull the trigger to blow up his mom. It was his wingmen who took out the bridge on the Rebel cruiser.

Rey tells Luke that Ben is a goner--that there's no redeeming him. Then, when she goes to meet Ben, she says the opposite--that there's still good in him.

I think that she's getting the hots for him.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I never said that there was no single example, or a few examples, of worlds with long journey times.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Looking at the Astrogation Gazetteer, none of the base times are multiple days long.


In the second quote, I was referring to the original game Gazetteer, in the First Edition rulebook. Maybe I didn't make that clear.

Ah, the old “but I meant FIRST Edition” trick...
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I never said that there was no single example, or a few examples, of worlds with long journey times.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Looking at the Astrogation Gazetteer, none of the base times are multiple days long.


In the second quote, I was referring to the original game Gazetteer, in the First Edition rulebook. Maybe I didn't make that clear.

Ah, the old “but I meant FIRST Edition” trick...


These are not the Astrogation charts that you're referring to. You don't think that there's an issue at all. Move along. Move along. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got into the old EU after seeing TFA (which I liked and still like), so, it’s not nostalgia or “hanging on,” for me, but, by and large I’d say the EU makes more sense and has better stories that hit my sweet spot much closer. However, admittedly, I am reading 20+ years old books and only the small fraction that everyone agrees are the cream of the crop (Thrawn, X-Wing). Benefit of hindsight.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Falconer wrote:
I got into the old EU after seeing TFA (which I liked and still like), so, it’s not nostalgia or “hanging on,” for me, but, by and large I’d say the EU makes more sense and has better stories that hit my sweet spot much closer. However, admittedly, I am reading 20+ years old books and only the small fraction that everyone agrees are the cream of the crop (Thrawn, X-Wing). Benefit of hindsight.


Similar to you...

I did read Thrawn's trilogy in hardback, when it first came out. And, I read the first few other hardbacks: The Courtship of Princess Leia, Truce At Bakura, I think. Maybe one or two more.

Although I loved Star Wars back then, I wasn't super impressed with the EU.

Over the years, I read some books, here and there, but, mostly, I ignored the EU.

Then, late in life, I got into comics, and I fell in love with the old Marvel reprints and all the Dark Horse stuff, which was so connected to the EU, that I my appreciation for it went up.

Like you, and probably for nostalgia's sake as well, I've become more interested in the EU since the Disney deal and the new films, and I'm going back and re-reading (or listening) or reading stuff for the first time.

And, I've got to say that time does change perspective. I'm enjoying the EU more now than I did when it first came out.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And I only really got into the EU novels after TFA... and, really, only just before TLJ. So, there's no particular connection to me for them. I know some of the names, obviously... I can give a capsule summary of who Thrawn is, and kinda know about the Vong, but that's most of my engagement.

I have far more connection to the Knights of the Old Republic/SWTOR era continuity than I do to the original post-Jedi continuity.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading another thread made me realize one thing about letting go the EU that I think most will agree upon.

Superweapons.

We haven't had a ton of them. There have been exactly three, all the same idea, building upon itself: Death Star, Death Star II, Starkiller Base.

There's no Galaxy Gun, no Star Forge, no Sun Crusher, no Tarkin Super Laser used as spinal mounts, no World Devastators, no Darksabers, etc.

Wookiepedia lists 69 super weapons that have shown up in the EU over the decades.

It's a wonder the SW universe exists at all!
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Say what? If anything, the Disneyverse has continued the trend. What are Starkiller Base and the Supremacy if not another entry in the Superweapon-Of-The-Month club?
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Falconer wrote:
I got into the old EU after seeing TFA (which I liked and still like), so, it’s not nostalgia or “hanging on,” for me, but, by and large I’d say the EU makes more sense and has better stories that hit my sweet spot much closer. However, admittedly, I am reading 20+ years old books and only the small fraction that everyone agrees are the cream of the crop (Thrawn, X-Wing). Benefit of hindsight.


Similar to you...

I did read Thrawn's trilogy in hardback, when it first came out. And, I read the first few other hardbacks: The Courtship of Princess Leia, Truce At Bakura, I think. Maybe one or two more.

Although I loved Star Wars back then, I wasn't super impressed with the EU.

Over the years, I read some books, here and there, but, mostly, I ignored the EU.

Then, late in life, I got into comics, and I fell in love with the old Marvel reprints and all the Dark Horse stuff, which was so connected to the EU, that I my appreciation for it went up.

Like you, and probably for nostalgia's sake as well, I've become more interested in the EU since the Disney deal and the new films, and I'm going back and re-reading (or listening) or reading stuff for the first time.

And, I've got to say that time does change perspective. I'm enjoying the EU more now than I did when it first came out.


I read the following books (that I can remember):

- Thrawn Trilogy
- Jedi Academy Trilogy
- Courtship of Princess Leia
- Truce at Bakura
- The Crystal Star
- Children of the Jedi, Darksaber, and Planet of Twilight trilogy.
- The New Rebellion
- The Black Fleet Crisis
- The Adventures of Han Solo (whence derives the Corporate Sector Authority sourcebook)
- I think the first two X-wing series books.

I also read Dark Empires I and II, and the old Goodwin/Williamson comics when Dark Horse Comics reprinted them, as well as a bunch of the "Knights of the Old Republic" era comics (still have the first appearance of that line in mint condition, too).

Of the stuff I read, specifically of the novels, I really only like the Han Solo Adventures, Thrawn Trilogy, and the X-wing books. The rest varied from "Meh" to garbage. I quit reading right around either the Black Fleet Crisis or New Rebellion came out. I don't remember the order of publication, though. But regardless, by that point, I realized I was just chasing the high I had gotten from the Thrawn Trilogy (which I've still gone back and re-read and even listened to on audio cassette). Nothing ever topped those books.

I never read anything past that, and dismissed everything I heard about the Yuzhan Vong storyline and all that followed. It just sounded dumb to me. As a result, I didn't really have a lot to "let go" of when I went into TFA and TLJ, because I'd already mostly let go of it. Only now am I watching The Clone Wars on Netflix, and I have the blu-rays of the first three Rebels seasons to watch, too. But still, none of it feels like it clashes with what I saw.

It clashes with what I know as far as EU background material, but having already mentally walled that off and been fine with it, I've found transitioning to the new stuff a lot easier.
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thought on this general subject.

I think part of folks' disappointment stems from one particular approaches to entertainment media as a whole these days, and to a lesser extent from JJ Abrams having played into this trend with TFA, and from another approach that is ABSOLUTELY tied to Abrams (as it's basically his signature style).

Basically, we're seeing a LOT of iterative entertainment. You're already going in familiar with the broad strokes of the story, and really all you're watching is new actors in new settings tell fundamentally the same story. A lot of this ties into the "remakitis" that has beset Hollywood for nearly 20 years now, but it also applies to a lot of the "branded" properties and IPs that are being turned into films and franchises.

In essence, Hollywood plays on your familiarity with the source material to generate excitement. You know where it's headed (mostly, probably) and the excitement is seeing how they actually do it.

The other approach to ginning up excitement about a story is to introduce a "mystery." Imply that there's a grand story lurking inside the box, and then lock the box and only gradually provide the clues that lead to the key. This is basically JJ Abrams' "Mystery Box" approach to storytelling, and it is, in my opinion, utter garbage. It's a weak technique designed to create artificial excitement about your story by manipulating the meta-story interaction with the audience itself. It also sucks that Abrams almost never has any idea where he's going with the mystery or what the answer is, or to the extent he does, it's a far more mundane answer than is implied by all the questions swirling round it.

I think both factors played into the disappointment that people felt with respect to TLJ.

First, JJ did his usual "mystery box" thing with a bunch of stuff by basically withholding information from the audience that most of the characters already know. (E.g., "Who is Snoke? Where'd he come from?" "What happened to the Jedi academy?" "Who are the Knights of Ren?" "Why did Kylo turn to evil?" "Why did Luke go into hiding?" "Who are Rey's parents?") The bulk of those are dismissed by TLJ or are answered simply without turning them into a larger mystery or requiring a lot of puzzle-solving by the audience to piece together.

Second, as I mentioned, a lot of entertainment these days is fundamentally iterative. It's variations on the same story you've already heard, or it's riffing on situations where you know what the outcome will be and your excitement derives from watching it unfold before you. TLJ doesn't allow that to happen. In fact, it actively frustrates that experience.

At several points in the film, it signposts where it's headed based on a reference to a very similar situation in ESB, and...then goes in a different direction. It's not always a radically different direction, but it's usually different enough that it undercuts your expectations and thus introduces frustration for people whose enjoyment is derived from accurately predicting what happens next (or from being "cleverly" fooled).

Example: Rey shows up on Ach-To and plaintively hands Luke his sabre. Everyone is expecting Luke to say something like "Ah. I was wondering when you'd arrive finally. We have much to discuss and little time. Come. I will teach you the ways of the Jedi." And instead...he chucks the sabre over his shoulder and tells her to sod off.

At Crait, all the visual cues point towards this being a repeat to the battle of Hoth. You have the 4-legged walkers and scout walkers alongside, you have the pristine white landscape across which they're marching, you have the Rebels dug into a fortified position, defending from trenches, you have speeders to attack the walkers, etc. Except...the speeders are rickety junk that barely stays aloft, the "snow" is actually salt, the Rebels CAN'T escape from the base (unlike Hoth), and the speeders never take down a walker, and the whole thing comes down to (fake) Luke standing alone and dueling Kylo Ren and surviving. Again, expectations frustrated. This isn't going to go how you think it is.

Likewise, the ending frustrates expectations. We expect a setup for another trilogy wrap-up wherein the evil Emp---uhhh...First Order will be defeated and we'll have another Ewok dance party or somesuch. Instead, the Rebellion is basically everyone who could fit into a beat up old freighter, the First Order is as strong as ever, and the one light of hope we have is that some kid who sweeps stables is inspired to maybe be a Jedi? WTF?! How is any of that going to be resolved neatly with a bow on it at the end of Ep. IX?! (Answer: it won't, but stay tuned for Eps. X-XII...)

Again and again we see these moments that make you think the film will go one way, and then subtly or more explicitly subvert those expectations and go another. Not only do they subvert them, they take advantage of them. And because we're so conditioned to follow along with iterative entertainment, we fall for it every damn time.

Now, personally, I love that the film did this. I think it did it in an entirely internally consistent way, too. There's nothing about the head fakes that I find doesn't make sense or doesn't fit the characters, given where they are in the story.

But I totally get why other people would be frustrated by it. They're going in expecting the experience to be not only familiar, but predictable in some respects. Not completely. They want some novelty to the tale, but they want to know that the film isn't messing with them when it signposts "Hey, we're gonna do this thing you've seen before." And TLJ did that over and over again. "Hey, we're gonna---PSYCH!!! GOTCHA!!! We're doing something ELSE!"

The thing that I appreciate about these changes is that they help to break Star Wars out of its iterative mold. Yes, there are similarities, but that doesn't mean that everything has to play out the same way you've seen it before. And the more we break those repeated story beats, the more we can tell new stories without feeling like we simply have to hit the same beats over and over again or it just isn't Star Wars.

Star Wars can be -- has to be -- bigger than the Original Trilogy if it wants to continue. Otherwise, it'll just be the same three movies done over and over and over again until audiences get bored of it and move on. But if you went in expecting basically a modified retelling of ESB...yeah, I can see where you'd be annoyed when the film repeatedly head-fakes and goes in another direction.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I have to agree with Solo here. One of my (and alot of other people's) biggest gripes with TFA (even as awesome as it was) is that it basically felt like a spruced-up retread of ANH. I was expecting a retread of TESB when I went to go see TLJ and boy, did TLJ subvert everything I was expecting. And a good thing too! I guess Rian Johnson and Co. thought "well, if TFA being a retread of ANH disappointed people, then let's give them something they won't expect!" I can't blame them for not wanting to make the same mistake that TFA did. I can totally sympathize with the view that Star Wars needed to be made fresh again by subverting everyone's expectations for TLJ.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solo4114 wrote:
Another thought on this general subject.

I think part of folks' disappointment stems from one particular approaches to entertainment media as a whole these days, and to a lesser extent from JJ Abrams having played into this trend with TFA, and from another approach that is ABSOLUTELY tied to Abrams (as it's basically his signature style).

Basically, we're seeing a LOT of iterative entertainment. You're already going in familiar with the broad strokes of the story, and really all you're watching is new actors in new settings tell fundamentally the same story. A lot of this ties into the "remakitis" that has beset Hollywood for nearly 20 years now, but it also applies to a lot of the "branded" properties and IPs that are being turned into films and franchises.

In essence, Hollywood plays on your familiarity with the source material to generate excitement. You know where it's headed (mostly, probably) and the excitement is seeing how they actually do it.

The other approach to ginning up excitement about a story is to introduce a "mystery." Imply that there's a grand story lurking inside the box, and then lock the box and only gradually provide the clues that lead to the key. This is basically JJ Abrams' "Mystery Box" approach to storytelling, and it is, in my opinion, utter garbage. It's a weak technique designed to create artificial excitement about your story by manipulating the meta-story interaction with the audience itself. It also sucks that Abrams almost never has any idea where he's going with the mystery or what the answer is, or to the extent he does, it's a far more mundane answer than is implied by all the questions swirling round it.

I think both factors played into the disappointment that people felt with respect to TLJ.

First, JJ did his usual "mystery box" thing with a bunch of stuff by basically withholding information from the audience that most of the characters already know. (E.g., "Who is Snoke? Where'd he come from?" "What happened to the Jedi academy?" "Who are the Knights of Ren?" "Why did Kylo turn to evil?" "Why did Luke go into hiding?" "Who are Rey's parents?") The bulk of those are dismissed by TLJ or are answered simply without turning them into a larger mystery or requiring a lot of puzzle-solving by the audience to piece together.

Second, as I mentioned, a lot of entertainment these days is fundamentally iterative. It's variations on the same story you've already heard, or it's riffing on situations where you know what the outcome will be and your excitement derives from watching it unfold before you. TLJ doesn't allow that to happen. In fact, it actively frustrates that experience.

At several points in the film, it signposts where it's headed based on a reference to a very similar situation in ESB, and...then goes in a different direction. It's not always a radically different direction, but it's usually different enough that it undercuts your expectations and thus introduces frustration for people whose enjoyment is derived from accurately predicting what happens next (or from being "cleverly" fooled).

Example: Rey shows up on Ach-To and plaintively hands Luke his sabre. Everyone is expecting Luke to say something like "Ah. I was wondering when you'd arrive finally. We have much to discuss and little time. Come. I will teach you the ways of the Jedi." And instead...he chucks the sabre over his shoulder and tells her to sod off.

At Crait, all the visual cues point towards this being a repeat to the battle of Hoth. You have the 4-legged walkers and scout walkers alongside, you have the pristine white landscape across which they're marching, you have the Rebels dug into a fortified position, defending from trenches, you have speeders to attack the walkers, etc. Except...the speeders are rickety junk that barely stays aloft, the "snow" is actually salt, the Rebels CAN'T escape from the base (unlike Hoth), and the speeders never take down a walker, and the whole thing comes down to (fake) Luke standing alone and dueling Kylo Ren and surviving. Again, expectations frustrated. This isn't going to go how you think it is.

Likewise, the ending frustrates expectations. We expect a setup for another trilogy wrap-up wherein the evil Emp---uhhh...First Order will be defeated and we'll have another Ewok dance party or somesuch. Instead, the Rebellion is basically everyone who could fit into a beat up old freighter, the First Order is as strong as ever, and the one light of hope we have is that some kid who sweeps stables is inspired to maybe be a Jedi? WTF?! How is any of that going to be resolved neatly with a bow on it at the end of Ep. IX?! (Answer: it won't, but stay tuned for Eps. X-XII...)

Again and again we see these moments that make you think the film will go one way, and then subtly or more explicitly subvert those expectations and go another. Not only do they subvert them, they take advantage of them. And because we're so conditioned to follow along with iterative entertainment, we fall for it every damn time.

Now, personally, I love that the film did this. I think it did it in an entirely internally consistent way, too. There's nothing about the head fakes that I find doesn't make sense or doesn't fit the characters, given where they are in the story.

But I totally get why other people would be frustrated by it. They're going in expecting the experience to be not only familiar, but predictable in some respects. Not completely. They want some novelty to the tale, but they want to know that the film isn't messing with them when it signposts "Hey, we're gonna do this thing you've seen before." And TLJ did that over and over again. "Hey, we're gonna---PSYCH!!! GOTCHA!!! We're doing something ELSE!"

The thing that I appreciate about these changes is that they help to break Star Wars out of its iterative mold. Yes, there are similarities, but that doesn't mean that everything has to play out the same way you've seen it before. And the more we break those repeated story beats, the more we can tell new stories without feeling like we simply have to hit the same beats over and over again or it just isn't Star Wars.

Star Wars can be -- has to be -- bigger than the Original Trilogy if it wants to continue. Otherwise, it'll just be the same three movies done over and over and over again until audiences get bored of it and move on. But if you went in expecting basically a modified retelling of ESB...yeah, I can see where you'd be annoyed when the film repeatedly head-fakes and goes in another direction.

Let's not lose site of the fact that a LOT of people loved TLJ. It grossed over $1.33 billion worldwide. Maybe the detractors are a very vocal minority, but they are the minority.

That being said, that's a very intriguing theory and may be the biggest reason why people who didn't like it didn't like it. I will point out that there were many similarities to multiple Star Wars films (more than pointed out here), but prequel similarities were less frequent than the classic trilogy. Speaking for myself I didn't expect TLJ to be a rehash of TESB. One of the reasons I loved TFA was because it was a reprise of ANH, my favorite Star Wars film. TFA had the mission of relaunching the entire franchise so it made sense. But I felt certain they weren't going to do that for every movie because that would get old. I also hoped that TLJ wasn't going to just rehash TESB because TESB is not one of my favorite SW movies (Please don't hate me). Overall I feel I expected a lot more originality from TLJ than I got.

I guess my disappointment in TLJ not having a lightsaber duel (lightsaber vs. lightsaber) could be considered an expectation not met, but I don't feel it's because the movie went left when I thought it would go right. I expect there to be lightsaber duels in ALL Star Wars movies (except RO and Solo). This movie has "Jedi" in the title, but no lightsaber duel?! I don't feel my dislike of Leia’s Injury/Holdo/Ackbar’s Death had to do with expectations of classic trilogy similarities. And a big part of my dislike for Barf Hideous was that he was a bigger, uglier knock-off the Palpatine. I'm not displeased that he died out of some wish for him to fulfill the Emperor role for the third episode of this trilogy. I'm glad he died (and hope they don't undo it). Kylo Ben becoming the Supreme Leader is like 'What if Anakin Vader had become the emperor?' so this is something relatively new. I like that left turn.
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Solo4114
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Let's not lose site of the fact that a LOT of people loved TLJ. It grossed over $1.33 billion worldwide. Maybe the detractors are a very vocal minority, but they are the minority.

That being said, that's a very intriguing theory and may be the biggest reason why people who didn't like it didn't like it. I will point out that there were many similarities to multiple Star Wars films (more than pointed out here), but prequel similarities were less frequent than the classic trilogy. Speaking for myself I didn't expect TLJ to be a rehash of TESB. One of the reasons I loved TFA was because it was a reprise of ANH, my favorite Star Wars film. TFA had the mission of relaunching the entire franchise so it made sense. But I felt certain they weren't going to do that for every movie because that would get old. I also hoped that TLJ wasn't going to just rehash TESB because TESB is not one of my favorite SW movies (Please don't hate me). Overall I feel I expected a lot more originality from TLJ than I got.

I guess my disappointment in TLJ not having a lightsaber duel (lightsaber vs. lightsaber) could be considered an expectation not met, but I don't feel it's because the movie went left when I thought it would go right. I expect there to be lightsaber duels in ALL Star Wars movies (except RO and Solo). This movie has "Jedi" in the title, but no lightsaber duel?! I don't feel my dislike of Leia’s Injury/Holdo/Ackbar’s Death had to do with expectations of classic trilogy similarities. And a big part of my dislike for Barf Hideous was that he was a bigger, uglier knock-off the Palpatine. I'm not displeased that he died out of some wish for him to fulfill the Emperor role for the third episode of this trilogy. I'm glad he died (and hope they don't undo it). Kylo Ben becoming the Supreme Leader is like 'What if Anakin Vader had become the emperor?' so this is something relatively new. I like that left turn.


Oh, absolutely! I'm one of them! I love what TLJ did on multiple levels. I love the underlying messages, I loved how it subverted expectations (jarring though that could be at times), and I loved how open it left the field for the next film. TLJ delivered basically what I was hoping to see in a new Star Wars film.

When my wife and I left the theater after watching TFA, I said to her "That was good, but I really hope they can take it in a new direction for the next film," and boy did they ever!

I do have my criticisms of the film in a few points. I kind of wish they hadn't so decimated the Resistance. The sense I got at the end of TLJ was that literally the Resistance/Rebellion is everyone on the Falcon and...that's it. Nobody came to help, nobody else was left, everyone who escaped D'Qar was on the ships we saw, and the only ones who survived it all were the Falcon survivors. I also found the "space chase" thing with the fuel to be kinda...dull. Which may have been the point, but I do wish it had been a bit more dynamic.

Otherwise, I was happy with it. I'm glad they dispatched with Rey's parentage mystery, and with the "WHO IS SNOKE?!" thing. I hate how JJ introduced a lot of that stuff apparently just to get audiences spinning their wheels. I hate that style of storytelling, especially when the pay off ends up being...nothing. Or at least nothing important.

But I've spent a lot of time talking with folks who didn't like it, and based on my conversations, these are some of the things I've come to believe as the underlying reasons for people's dislike.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel that you're being a tad harsh JJ Abrams and TFA. I don't think that he created a bunch of hollow mysteries just for the sake of creating mysteries. This trilogy is chain writing so each director passes it off to the next. JJ Abrams created potential mysteries and then left it for the next guy. If the mysteries turned out hollow or not was up to Rian Johnson, and he did what he wanted with them. And now that JJ Abrams is back for Episode IX, the lightsaber is being passed back to him (or rather he has to go long and catch it), and then he concludes the story based on what came before. Rian Johnson hit the snooze button on some things like the Knights of Ren so it's back to Abrams.

I feel a more deserving criticism is the whole chain writing trilogy method. If they had an overarching trilogy plot plan then I'm an confident there wouldn't have been any pointless empty mysteries.
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