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Ragithian Human
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:58 pm    Post subject: Ragithian Human Reply with quote

Ragithian Humans were Near-Humans who inhabited the high-gravity world of Ragith III. Due to genetic engineering, they were tall, strong beings who dwarfed most baseline Humans.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Ragithian_Human

I Need help with stating.
Considering a 13D base with a 3D/5D strength, otherwise "normal"

Ideas and thoughts welcomed
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What would they have to counter their higher str/tall ness?
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
What would they have to counter their higher str/tall ness?


Counter, you mean as in the +1D Attribute as I suggested, placed in a 3D/5D?

As it states in the few lines, they come from a heavy gravity world. Given it so states they dwarf baseline humans I assume they are more than just thin as a string and tall a house.

DEX: 2D/4D ( maybe if need be for the gravity a 1D+2/3D+2)
KNO: 2D/4D (Nothing indicates otherwise)
PER: 2D/4D (Nothing indicates otherwise)
STR: 2D/4D (perhaps 3d/5D to indicate their strength, idk)
MEC: 2D/4D (Nothing indicates otherwise)
TEC: 2D/4D (Nothing indicates otherwise)

Move: 10 (but maybe 12 on normal gravity worlds I am not sure)

The differences could be simply pips as well, and 12D seems ok, 13D to me seems more accurate this because the species is not said to be strong and dumb, strong and slow, then again they are only said to be large....
to me large is high str, at least for purposes of taking damage and stamina.
Also I consider a 2D str with 7D lifting as stronger than a 5D str with 6D lifting.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
garhkal wrote:
What would they have to counter their higher str/tall ness?


Counter, you mean as in the +1D Attribute as I suggested, placed in a 3D/5D?


Yes. What disadvantage do they have to offset gaining that other D?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do they have to have a negative? Lorrdians, a near human race from the Alien Encounters book, have 3D/5D Perception and no negatives to offset that.

Some alien races are created with less than 12D, and I usually don't see any benefit to offset that. For example, the Pa'Lowick are made from a base of 10D.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's strange that a high-G genetically engineered human is tall. I'd imagine they'd be somewhat squat. Like how the 'best' (genetically) fighter jet pilots are somewhat squat with a borderline high blood pressure, both to counteract high G stresses. However, that's the flavor text to work with, so that's neither here nor there.

If one wants to give them a few downsides, one might consider something like (one or more of the suggestions):

Story Factor: High G Native

For a Ragithian, a Standard G environment is the equivalent of a Low G environment, and a Low G environment is the equivalent of a Zero G environment for Dex penalty purposes. Dex penalties for Zero G environments are doubled.

Story Factor: Poor Thrower

A Ragithian is native to a high g environment. In a high g environment, throwing stuff is quite different from a lower g environment. When a Ragithian is in a Standard or lower G environment, he suffers a -1D penalty to all actions involving throwing.

Story Factor: Genetically engineered

A Ragithian is genetically engineered to function in a high G environment. As a side effect, Ragithians have slightly different connective tissues and a higher blood pressure than baseline humans, as well as a variety of engineered anatomical differences from baseline humans. Any First Aid or Medicine roll on a Ragithian is +5 more difficult as a consequence of this. Ragithian is a valid specialization for First Aid.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
It's strange that a high-G genetically engineered human is tall. I'd imagine they'd be somewhat squat. Like how the 'best' (genetically) fighter jet pilots are somewhat squat with a borderline high blood pressure, both to counteract high G stresses. However, that's the flavor text to work with, so that's neither here nor there.

If one wants to give them a few downsides, one might consider something like (one or more of the suggestions):

Story Factor: High G Native

For a Ragithian, a Standard G environment is the equivalent of a Low G environment, and a Low G environment is the equivalent of a Zero G environment for Dex penalty purposes. Dex penalties for Zero G environments are doubled.

Story Factor: Poor Thrower

A Ragithian is native to a high g environment. In a high g environment, throwing stuff is quite different from a lower g environment. When a Ragithian is in a Standard or lower G environment, he suffers a -1D penalty to all actions involving throwing.

Story Factor: Genetically engineered

A Ragithian is genetically engineered to function in a high G environment. As a side effect, Ragithians have slightly different connective tissues and a higher blood pressure than baseline humans, as well as a variety of engineered anatomical differences from baseline humans. Any First Aid or Medicine roll on a Ragithian is +5 more difficult as a consequence of this. Ragithian is a valid specialization for First Aid.


I can't see how they should get the above specific penalties.
Penalties for balance ....maybe, but in all fairness, a species ( not this one) CAN by the RAW have 14D attributes, Natural Armor, Natural Weapons, 4 Special Abilities and nothing negative what so ever......
Just get high roles on the generator tables in the books.

I may be looking into seeing what other high gravity races there are out there and what penalties these have when off world
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now the Cardian species are not human or near humen, but they are mammalian.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Caridan_(species)

The few lines of their physical description states that due to the gravity on their home world they are tall 2 meters on average.
They had a dense musculatures, something that to me indicates above "average" strength.

Adding some of this to humans/near humans I actually find it to only add, no actual penalties to balance out anything.

So I would go with 3D/5D strength, and maybe/maybe not use a 13D base.

If we look at cardia, given I used them as an example here. it was the higher gravity and the "harsh" conditions that made the planet a known home for stromtrooper training, and in particular the commandos.

this is to my knowledge the only academy where it is actually stated they run the commando school, and to me it is about the planets conditions.
I would even go as far as allowing a cardia graduate a pip bonus to attributes (pre calculated into the template used)
So where notmally 2D+2 would apply, the new attribute is 3D, however these would only apply to dex and strength, and even maybe to skills and not the attribute overall
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Caridans also have the description "Spindly arms and legs, squarish faces, three digits, and hooves". The illustration pic looks like something from Droids or something.

My comments were twofold; first, if one wanted any story factors that might be appropriate for heavyworlders, I had a set of a few suggestions. They're mostly in line with the suggestions found in Galladinium's, look to Requilisant and Servo-Slippers for specific examples of the penalties a non-heavyworlder might get on a heavy-g planet.

Second, I commented that tall and strong is counterintuitive to how a heavyworlder would likely be. The Square-Cube law makes sure of that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square%E2%80%93cube_law . Basically, if your shins need to bear a heavier load all the time (and you're engineered to your environment), it is unlikely you're tall unless you have a different structure (and therefore material characteristics) in your skeletal structure or connective tissues.

"Spindly legs" for the Caridans is an example of that - that indicates that their skeleton needs to be on the strength of carbon fiber or durasteel or something in order to carry their weight - 'dense musculature' won't help with that. However, Star Wars isn't about 'realism', whatever one means by that, so one might decide otherwise of course. You might also consider Hal Clement's Mission of Gravity for an example of fairly detailed heavy-g worldbuilding.

'Genetic engineering' isn't a panacea, unless it is used for handwaving problems. Changing the atmospheric mix or ambient pressure means building in biological adaptions to help this. Oxygen under high pressure becomes toxic - a problem for divers, for instance. If you want an organism to survive outside of the parameters of Earth, it will likely introduce a number of anomalies that can make things like medical treatment difficult.

For instance, perhaps the tensile strength of normal skin isn't enough to hold various organs and tissues in place. Or perhaps ligaments must be strengthened, the contractility of musculature increased to address the heavier loads that they're put under, and so on.

In a sense, it is telling that they're Near-Humans, rather than a straight up Human after their genetic engineering. Changes to their biology may make them unable to breed with Humans - leading them to be as alien to a human biologically speaking as, say, a Duros or Chiss. However, when it comes to genetics Star Wars is firmly in the same place as fantasy worlds where humans can breed with almost anything. Particularly if they're bards.

Consider also TVTropes' page on Heavyworlders: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Heavyworlder

Clumsiness is also a potential factor - our senses work generally on a logarithmic scale rather than a linear scale. This means that if you're used to a liter of water weighing, say, 2 kg, the 'fine motor control' of your muscles might get out of whack if the same liter of water weighs 0.5 kg (which it might in a low-g environment). If you didn't think about it, you might smack yourself in the face when trying to drink from a glass or cup because it is much lighter than what your experience tells you to expect. The inverse is also true - if you're used to that liter of water weighing 0.5 kg rather than 2 kg, it's difficult to judge how much effort is needed to lift it; you would tend to go for "max effort" at any rate - which might also lead you to smack your face. Hence, Dex-penalties when you're in a different gravity environment than you're used to.

Anyways; I offer suggestions. Ultimately, it is your campaign. You do you. I will do me. If all your homebrew races have the same dice pool as Noghri, go for it. It might be balanced to you. It may not be balanced for anyone else's campaign, and it might even be out of whack for what is generally established in WEG's EU.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
The Caridans also have the description "Spindly arms and legs, squarish faces, three digits, and hooves". The illustration pic looks like something from Droids or something.

My comments were twofold; first, if one wanted any story factors that might be appropriate for heavyworlders, I had a set of a few suggestions. They're mostly in line with the suggestions found in Galladinium's, look to Requilisant and Servo-Slippers for specific examples of the penalties a non-heavyworlder might get on a heavy-g planet.

Second, I commented that tall and strong is counterintuitive to how a heavyworlder would likely be. The Square-Cube law makes sure of that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square%E2%80%93cube_law . Basically, if your shins need to bear a heavier load all the time (and you're engineered to your environment), it is unlikely you're tall unless you have a different structure (and therefore material characteristics) in your skeletal structure or connective tissues.

"Spindly legs" for the Caridans is an example of that - that indicates that their skeleton needs to be on the strength of carbon fiber or durasteel or something in order to carry their weight - 'dense musculature' won't help with that. However, Star Wars isn't about 'realism', whatever one means by that, so one might decide otherwise of course. You might also consider Hal Clement's Mission of Gravity for an example of fairly detailed heavy-g worldbuilding.

'Genetic engineering' isn't a panacea, unless it is used for handwaving problems. Changing the atmospheric mix or ambient pressure means building in biological adaptions to help this. Oxygen under high pressure becomes toxic - a problem for divers, for instance. If you want an organism to survive outside of the parameters of Earth, it will likely introduce a number of anomalies that can make things like medical treatment difficult.

For instance, perhaps the tensile strength of normal skin isn't enough to hold various organs and tissues in place. Or perhaps ligaments must be strengthened, the contractility of musculature increased to address the heavier loads that they're put under, and so on.

In a sense, it is telling that they're Near-Humans, rather than a straight up Human after their genetic engineering. Changes to their biology may make them unable to breed with Humans - leading them to be as alien to a human biologically speaking as, say, a Duros or Chiss. However, when it comes to genetics Star Wars is firmly in the same place as fantasy worlds where humans can breed with almost anything. Particularly if they're bards.

Consider also TVTropes' page on Heavyworlders: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Heavyworlder

Clumsiness is also a potential factor - our senses work generally on a logarithmic scale rather than a linear scale. This means that if you're used to a liter of water weighing, say, 2 kg, the 'fine motor control' of your muscles might get out of whack if the same liter of water weighs 0.5 kg (which it might in a low-g environment). If you didn't think about it, you might smack yourself in the face when trying to drink from a glass or cup because it is much lighter than what your experience tells you to expect. The inverse is also true - if you're used to that liter of water weighing 0.5 kg rather than 2 kg, it's difficult to judge how much effort is needed to lift it; you would tend to go for "max effort" at any rate - which might also lead you to smack your face. Hence, Dex-penalties when you're in a different gravity environment than you're used to.

Anyways; I offer suggestions. Ultimately, it is your campaign. You do you. I will do me. If all your homebrew races have the same dice pool as Noghri, go for it. It might be balanced to you. It may not be balanced for anyone else's campaign, and it might even be out of whack for what is generally established in WEG's EU.



I agree with the science, maybe less so with the game mechanics.

lets look at the ubese, as a species they are 12D, BUT because of their homeworld and the atmosphere they need a breath mask.
If you look however to their sub species, they do by the fluff text not need a breath mask, have evolved in a less but almost as harsh environment.
They get a +1D to any stamina check, now this is a good bonus......and with zero penalties other than a small social stigma among the true ubese.


If we look to species coming from a heavy gravity world we see in general terms in their fluff texts that they get so and so +xPip, or +XD dice to skills outside their homeworld, or on normal condition worlds rather.

Now I am considering the Ragithian Human to be 12D, but allow them on normal gravity a +2D to lifting, maybe pips or Dice to running, and climbing as well, and Stamina.

To me the best indicator of strength is not the attribute but the lifting skill.

I am considering allowing them also a higher melee str base damage in a normal gravity environment.

for damage, and other non dealing damage checks I am sure they would roll normally, for damage in melee maybe +2 pip, or +1D.
Stamina +1D, maybe more Possibly
And +1 or +2 pips to running and climbing.

maybe go as far as raising the 2D/4D strength to 2D+2/4D+2 ( just not make them balled wookies)
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Do they have to have a negative? Lorrdians, a near human race from the Alien Encounters book, have 3D/5D Perception and no negatives to offset that.

Some alien races are created with less than 12D, and I usually don't see any benefit to offset that. For example, the Pa'Lowick are made from a base of 10D.


No statistical negatives. But a massive RP one. They go off on slavers!

Zarn wrote:
It's strange that a high-G genetically engineered human is tall. I'd imagine they'd be somewhat squat. Like how the 'best' (genetically) fighter jet pilots are somewhat squat with a borderline high blood pressure, both to counteract high G stresses. However, that's the flavor text to work with, so that's neither here nor there.

If one wants to give them a few downsides, one might consider something like (one or more of the suggestions):

Story Factor: High G Native

For a Ragithian, a Standard G environment is the equivalent of a Low G environment, and a Low G environment is the equivalent of a Zero G environment for Dex penalty purposes. Dex penalties for Zero G environments are doubled.

Story Factor: Poor Thrower

A Ragithian is native to a high g environment. In a high g environment, throwing stuff is quite different from a lower g environment. When a Ragithian is in a Standard or lower G environment, he suffers a -1D penalty to all actions involving throwing.

Story Factor: Genetically engineered

A Ragithian is genetically engineered to function in a high G environment. As a side effect, Ragithians have slightly different connective tissues and a higher blood pressure than baseline humans, as well as a variety of engineered anatomical differences from baseline humans. Any First Aid or Medicine roll on a Ragithian is +5 more difficult as a consequence of this. Ragithian is a valid specialization for First Aid.


I like those, especially the throwing and medical ones..
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
It's strange that a high-G genetically engineered human is tall. I'd imagine they'd be somewhat squat. Like how the 'best' (genetically) fighter jet pilots are somewhat squat with a borderline high blood pressure, both to counteract high G stresses. However, that's the flavor text to work with, so that's neither here nor there.

If one wants to give them a few downsides, one might consider something like (one or more of the suggestions):

Story Factor: High G Native

For a Ragithian, a Standard G environment is the equivalent of a Low G environment, and a Low G environment is the equivalent of a Zero G environment for Dex penalty purposes. Dex penalties for Zero G environments are doubled.

Story Factor: Poor Thrower

A Ragithian is native to a high g environment. In a high g environment, throwing stuff is quite different from a lower g environment. When a Ragithian is in a Standard or lower G environment, he suffers a -1D penalty to all actions involving throwing.

Story Factor: Genetically engineered

A Ragithian is genetically engineered to function in a high G environment. As a side effect, Ragithians have slightly different connective tissues and a higher blood pressure than baseline humans, as well as a variety of engineered anatomical differences from baseline humans. Any First Aid or Medicine roll on a Ragithian is +5 more difficult as a consequence of this. Ragithian is a valid specialization for First Aid.



I would argue that if you are used to heavy gravity and you throw something "normal" distance, then with lower gravity you throw further, I would go as far maybe adding +25-50% throwing distance.

As to the high G negative, other than zero grav, which I feel need training to master, I can't see how getting slower in lower gravity can happen, faster yes.

As for medical, I would simply treat them as any other near human, giving a normal penalty for medical/first aid unless specialized in the species.


Given one of these guys seemed to not only work as a bouncer on the top secret death star, he sort of kept the troops in line there as well, at the bar, not the DS as a whole.

I may actually give them some limits to tech, to start with, but nothing that can not be assimilated in the future.
I may be inclined to give them a short fuse, though nothing to me seems to indicate them being quick tempered.

I am not so sure I want to put so much more than maybe something about their age IF need be to have some offsets, but really with a system that can handle, and allows for a a +14D attribute, 4 special Abilities, zero penalties, natural armor and natural weapons, then I am sure a genetically "adapted" human, as they seem to be, with a possible 3D/5D is ok even with zero offsets
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's one of the main problems i often see mentioned. Some races seem weak in comparison to others, which often have lots of benefits and no to little downsides to offset them. I mean why NOT play a verpine if you are wanting to be the best techie out there. Why ever go with a human for one?

Or doing a barbel or gand for a bounty hunter etc...
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am beginning to have issues "balance" in game rules.

I came to look at a beginner character, not so much in this system especially, but over all, including here.

HEROES! This is what the book tells us the characters are, yet everything heroic is so toned down it become non heroic.

Look to jedi templates and characters, Player side, NOT NPCs.

the payers ARE heroes, so they should not be faced with certain death seeing someone with a weapon.

A template mercenary, is more than some random dude picking up a blaster and goes rambo.
We often see and conceptualize prior military service.......

So as a former soldier, how come as a Hero I can't do what recruits I face do?

I think this is one of the errors made by many GM, is to balance out and to make PCs weak, because of some "unwritten" rule from back in the beginning of rpgs.

Everyone can be best, but some are all over good, many are.

Strong AND fast AND smart, And alert AND a good driver, while an average mechanic........this is fully realistic.

Having less DEX becuse you have high KNO is not....always.

I am landing on the Righitian being 3d/5D STR, with ZERO offsets.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Go ahead. You do you as I said. If you think it is balanced for your campaign, you're the authority at your table and nobody can say otherwise.

However, I think you'll find that the stats you've cooked together for the Ragithians likely will not fly if it is put through any sort of vetting or editorial process for inclusion, in, say, a fan-made GG Alien Races.

I think that you're fundamentally wrong in your assessment of starting characters in WEG Star Wars. Starting characters ARE heroes, and do things that few NPCs can do.

The average die code for any attribute of a human is 2D. The average die code for a player character human character is 3D.

Consider the typical Imperial Army Trooper (2nd ed Revised GM Screen).

DEX 3D, KNO 1D+1, MEC 1D+1, PER 2D, STR 3D+1, TEC 1D, Mv 10. Highest skill: Blaster 4D+1

That's 12D in attributes by my count. Also, KNO and TEC seems to be lower than human minimum - seems Imperial boot camp involves a few hard knocks to the head.

Then, consider something like a human PC specializing in kicking in doors and shooting up the place. Let's say something like:

DEX 4D, KNO 2D, MEC 3D, PER 3D, STR 4D, TEC 2D. Let's assign the starting skill dice as well: +2D Blaster, +2D Dodge, +1D Repulsorlift ops, +1D Brawling, +1D Survival.

Let's add the same gear as the trooper - field armor & helmet (+1D physical, +2 energy), blaster rifle (5D), a couple of grenades (5D), helmet comlink, survival gear, utility belt with supplies.

The human PC will roll more dice in EVERY SINGLE SKILL that is listed under the Imp Army Trooper's skills. They'll also have a Force Point, and have a few Character Points that can boost any given roll that needs a little extra.

The 'certain death' part is something that I find unreasonable, particularly if you do the math, so I won't bother addressing that but simply put it down to hyperbole.
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