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Lightsaber Finn
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:06 pm    Post subject: Lightsaber Finn Reply with quote

I was thinking today that Finn, using the lightsaber in The Force Awakens, is a good example of the D6 rules.

He has no Lightsaber skill, yet he was able to wield it efficiently. The novelization says that he's never picked up a lightsaber before in his life, but he's athletic and knows how to use melee weapons.

So, this is a prime example of a character's attribute being used--in this case, DEX,--when the character has no real trained skill in that area.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:16 pm    Post subject: Re: LIghtsaber Finn Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I was thinking today that Finn, using the lightsaber in The Force Awakens, is a good example of the D6 rules.

He has no Lightsaber skill, yet he was able to wield it efficiently. The novelization says that he's never picked up a lightsaber before in his life, but he's athletic and knows how to use melee weapons.

So, this is a prime example of a character's attribute being used--in this case, DEX,--when the character has no real trained skill in that area.


An alternative, given he doesn't seem to be at 4D DEX, could be something like allowing lightsaber to be used with melee skill, though at a "huge" penalty, something like only able to use 1/2 the skill D, or something.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:07 pm    Post subject: Re: LIghtsaber Finn Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
An alternative, given he doesn't seem to be at 4D DEX, could be something like allowing lightsaber to be used with melee skill, though at a "huge" penalty, something like only able to use 1/2 the skill D, or something.


Is there some 2E rule the reason for the alternative? I was referring to 1E, which basically says that anyone can use a lightsaber as a melee weapon. They just don't get the extra dice to damage from Control and don't get the Force stuff.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Re: LIghtsaber Finn Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
An alternative, given he doesn't seem to be at 4D DEX, could be something like allowing lightsaber to be used with melee skill, though at a "huge" penalty, something like only able to use 1/2 the skill D, or something.


Is there some 2E rule the reason for the alternative? I was referring to 1E, which basically says that anyone can use a lightsaber as a melee weapon. They just don't get the extra dice to damage from Control and don't get the Force stuff.


I think this makes sense as well, it is one of the 2E things I personally disagree with , the lightsaber being that exclusive skill.
Though 2E still allows for the default Attribute roll for the skill
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a "lore" perspective, I prefer that the Lightsaber skill be exclusive. I personally feel that unless a character is a Jedi (or has an appropriate background subject to GM discretion), then the lightsaber skill should be off limits all together.

I consider it sufficiently esoteric that non-Jedi would not be able to use it effectively, even if they grasp it's basic application as a "sword."

Ultimately, a lightsaber is built to be used by it's builder. Attuning the weapon to the force is part of making it, thus, the weapon is not only a force-user-specific thing, but a Jedi-specific ritual that makes each one first of all unique, and second, an extension of it's maker.

While any Jedi can use any lightsaber just fine because a Jedi understands what a lightsaber truly is, it doesn't make sense to me that a non-Jedi could make worthwhile use of a lightsaber. Thus, I would relegate such a character to using the dex attribute only, until such a time as they acquire a reasonable source for instruction on the weapon.

YMMV.

(Full disclosure: Finn's use of the lightsaber may be "canon," but, I don't care: I interpret his use of the weapon to be attribute based, and having no overlap to his "melee combat" skill).
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
From a "lore" perspective, I prefer that the Lightsaber skill be exclusive. I personally feel that unless a character is a Jedi (or has an appropriate background subject to GM discretion), then the lightsaber skill should be off limits all together.

I consider it sufficiently esoteric that non-Jedi would not be able to use it effectively, even if they grasp it's basic application as a "sword."

Ultimately, a lightsaber is built to be used by it's builder. Attuning the weapon to the force is part of making it, thus, the weapon is not only a force-user-specific thing, but a Jedi-specific ritual that makes each one first of all unique, and second, an extension of it's maker.

While any Jedi can use any lightsaber just fine because a Jedi understands what a lightsaber truly is, it doesn't make sense to me that a non-Jedi could make worthwhile use of a lightsaber. Thus, I would relegate such a character to using the dex attribute only, until such a time as they acquire a reasonable source for instruction on the weapon.

YMMV.

(Full disclosure: Finn's use of the lightsaber may be "canon," but, I don't care: I interpret his use of the weapon to be attribute based, and having no overlap to his "melee combat" skill).


Other than the force attuning, is the actual lightsaber any different than a lightfoil? This is a valid non force user skill (Tapani sector though)

I would say that using a 15 difficulty is actually too much if jedi, where I would use only a 5 or 10.
As for a non force user I would go with the 15 and only base damage, also removing the ignore armor ability as I see this as a force thing
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would someone be barred from picking up a lightsaber and using it to hit another with? Isn't it the same as picking up a broom stick and hitting someone with it?



I do like the 2E rule where, if an unskilled users misses his attack number by 10+, damage is applied to the character and not his attacker.

Those things are dangerous!
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, the example in RAW (R&E p.39) shows that even skilled users are in danger of hurting themselves if they miss the difficulty by more than 10. It is just more dangerous for unskilled users.

Lightsaber rules are are a divisive subject, but here is my idea. The Melee skill can be used for Lightsabers. The rule about hurting yourself applies. Finn has some training in the Melee skill but not Lightsaber, so he isn't in too much danger of hurting himself but he is no match for a Force-sensitive and experienced Lightsaber-wielder.

The Lightsaber skill is an Advanced skill with Melee as a prerequisite (thinking 5D). Just having the Lightsaber skill at 1D eliminates the 'hurt yourself' possibility. The Lightsaber skill is added to the Melee skill in use. Ligthsabers are rare in the galaxy during the Empire, and so is the Lightsaber skill. In RAW, advanced skills cost double the CPs to raise them but I'm thinking of making all advance skills triple the cost to raise in my game. Grievous would be an example of someone who had good Melee and Lightsaber skills, but no Force ability.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Actually, the example in RAW (R&E p.39) shows that even skilled users are in danger of hurting themselves if they miss the difficulty by more than 10. It is just more dangerous for unskilled users.

Lightsaber rules are are a divisive subject, but here is my idea. The Melee skill can be used for Lightsabers. The rule about hurting yourself applies. Finn has some training in the Melee skill but not Lightsaber, so he isn't in too much danger of hurting himself but he is no match for a Force-sensitive and experienced Lightsaber-wielder.

The Lightsaber skill is an Advanced skill with Melee as a prerequisite (thinking 5D). Just having the Lightsaber skill at 1D eliminates the 'hurt yourself' possibility. The Lightsaber skill is added to the Melee skill in use. Ligthsabers are rare in the galaxy during the Empire, and so is the Lightsaber skill. In RAW, advanced skills cost double the CPs to raise them but I'm thinking of making all advance skills triple the cost to raise in my game. Grievous would be an example of someone who had good Melee and Lightsaber skills, but no Force ability.



I'd suggest to reflect the jedi/sith/others training with lightsabers that the skill is what it is.

I we look to languages the rules do state with the Attribute roll, that a person can understand the secret language of the royal guards.
This is however in every fuff text said that this is not the case, this si something ONLY the guards know, and "never" teach outsiders.
Meaning it is a language, you can not learn.
Making it a speciality or advanced skill will not work, as most likely not all guards have the same minimum XD to languages.

Now if we look to lightsabers, taking "new" canon into account, then even luke calls it a laser SWORD, and the movies portrays the weapon as such.

the chance of self mutilation should be there, and it should be a difficult weapon to wield.
A trained Jedi, that have the force power LIGHTSABER COMBAT (Con+Sen)
something that CAN be chosen at creation, should to me have a much lower difficulty in using the weapon, and a much lower chance of self mutilation, in addition to adding to damage.

Doing this, will allow for lightfoils, it will allow for girevous, it will allow for lightsaber finn.
It will also allow for the jedi to MASTER the weapon, to do things only jedi could with a lightsaber..........including fighting with little or no difficulty.

However due to the pacifist nature of much of the jedi order, younglings and padawans learn combat skill individually and depending on their jedi master, more than through a uniform system, like a military academy.

This means two knights could have very different lightsaber skills, one can still use the weapon, but without the powers, using it as both a symbol of his jedi-ness, more than a weapon, be it a healer or something like that.

A guardian, or a warrior type, if we want to use the terms sentinel or shadow then these are the combatants of the order, they are most likely the ones learning lightsaber combat at the earliest point, etc etc......


so anyone using a lightsaber use it as a laser sword, including jedi.
Anyone with the lightsaber combat power, can use the weapon with reduced difficulties in addition to increasing the damage.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
The Melee skill can be used for Lightsabers. The rule about hurting yourself applies.
....
The Lightsaber skill is an Advanced skill with Melee as a prerequisite (thinking 5D). Just having the Lightsaber skill at 1D eliminates the 'hurt yourself' possibility. The Lightsaber skill is added to the Melee skill in use.


I like this. However, doesn't it violate the usual precept of advanced skills, that they always add to their prereq?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a lot to unpack here, but, with regard to my idea, it's just my preference.

Critique my logic as you please, but I'm pretty well resolved that I have sufficient RPG/gamer/sci-fi nerd logic to support my position.

If a lightsaber is special, let's keep it special. It's not "loot" and it's not a utilitarian device.

I don't want a SWU wherein everyone has, or "can" have a lightsaber. Anyone not a Jedi needs a story-driven reason for why he has one, and why he knows how to use it, and it should be a well-developed story/reason.

And, to be clear, I didn't say a person can't use it. I said they can't master/develop their skill in it outside of an appropriate context.

And for whatever it's worth, a lightsaber may have a resemblance to a light foil, but I personally consider them to be weapons of wholly different natures. In other words, I consider them as different as apples and ornithine.


Last edited by Naaman on Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Whill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Whill wrote:
The Melee skill can be used for Lightsabers. The rule about hurting yourself applies.
....
The Lightsaber skill is an Advanced skill with Melee as a prerequisite (thinking 5D). Just having the Lightsaber skill at 1D eliminates the 'hurt yourself' possibility. The Lightsaber skill is added to the Melee skill in use.


I like this. However, doesn't it violate the usual precept of advanced skills, that they always add to their prereq?

No, the precept is not "violated". Look again.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:51 pm    Post subject: Re: LIghtsaber Finn Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
I was thinking today that Finn, using the lightsaber in The Force Awakens, is a good example of the D6 rules.

He has no Lightsaber skill, yet he was able to wield it efficiently. The novelization says that he's never picked up a lightsaber before in his life, but he's athletic and knows how to use melee weapons.

So, this is a prime example of a character's attribute being used--in this case, DEX,--when the character has no real trained skill in that area.


And as a 'hero' he could have been popping CP/FP as well..

Mamatried wrote:

An alternative, given he doesn't seem to be at 4D DEX, could be something like allowing lightsaber to be used with melee skill, though at a "huge" penalty, something like only able to use 1/2 the skill D, or something.


IF i was to allow a rule like that, you'd be better off just going by dex TILL melee's over double the dex..

Quote:
From a "lore" perspective, I prefer that the Lightsaber skill be exclusive. I personally feel that unless a character is a Jedi (or has an appropriate background subject to GM discretion), then the lightsaber skill should be off limits all together.

I consider it sufficiently esoteric that non-Jedi would not be able to use it effectively, even if they grasp it's basic application as a "sword."


Then Han wouldn't have been able to use it in ESB..

Mamatried wrote:

I would say that using a 15 difficulty is actually too much if jedi, where I would use only a 5 or 10.
As for a non force user I would go with the 15 and only base damage, also removing the ignore armor ability as I see this as a force thing


If you look, all melee weapons have a base diff, with the more estoric/bigger ones having the higher diff.. So keeping it at a 20 is imo ok.. Also remember most jedi would have LS combat anyway, so they have more of a chance of hitting that 20.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I use lightsaber as a specialization of melee and parry, and have for years (in part due to the mathematical similarity to having a single seperate skill). My real world experience with multiple martial arts weapons actually places the lightsaber somewhere between a sword and a single stick. Almost all maneuvers from either weapon would be effective, including stick exclusives (like flip strikes for example). Having had the fun weekend of multiple black belts fooling about with lightsabers to figure out what works best, I'd say that if taken at a base value, lightsabers would be a brutally effective melee weapon.

That said, at one time I did have a conceptual framework for sabers that explained both the extremely high difficulty (which in reality they really shouldn't have) as well as the exclusivity.. the magnetic field. Such a powerful field would make it likely for minor tugs at the tip of the blade to pull the weapon out of alignment.. tugs which a Jedi could predict with the force, and which only a specialist could otherwise deal with perhaps. Two inches at the end of a sword might not seem like a lot, but trust me it's huge. Anyway, these little tugs could be amplified by proximity of power lines and other magnetic fields.. and this could explain why lightsabers can "bind" despite not having a blade to notch.. the fields stick magnetically.

Finally, in the new canon, the crystal plays a much bigger part in the saber.. they seem to be partially sentient, and could easily make life difficult for an incompatible wielder in small ways.

I guess what I am really trying to get across is that if you want it as a seperate skill (advanced skill, etc.), just pick a reason for it, and if you prefer to just use melee, just let the weapon behave in a predictable way.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I notice that the First Edition rules do take the approach that the Lightsaber can be handled by anyone without training.

Check out page 31, under Dexterity Blank Skills. The lightsaber is used as an example of how to create/use a Blank Skill in the game.

And the quote from ANH is referenced:

Quote:
Luke: What is it?

Ben: Your father's lightsaber. This is the weapon of a Jedi Knight. Not as clumsy or as random as a blaster.


Then, page 49 flat out says that anyone can use a lightsaber without training. But, those trained in the Force can use the weapon in special ways.



In the hands of a Jedi, though, the weapon becomes more than what it is to everyone else. A Jedi's Control skill is added to increase the weapon's damage.

If a Jedi's Sense skill is higher than his Melee Parry skill, then he can substitute for the higher code when using the lightsaber to parry. And, there's a chance to damage a target's limb or weapon when parrying.



This fits what we see Finn do rather well.
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