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Star Wars The Last Jedi Novelization - Expanded Edition
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
So, it basically builds a profile of where they might head, rather than actually tracking? "They left X on Y vector, which puts Z, A, B, and C in their path. Of those, C is most likely."

Given that it takes hours, it seems of limited use... a ship could make a second hyperspace jump while you're crunching the data.


"Hours" was my word. I'm not quite sure what the novel said. It was some time, because the Resistance Fleet jumped. Then Kylo Ren was summoned before Snoke. Hux was already there, explaining to Snoke that he had the feeling fleet on a string. Snoke didn't know what he was talking about, and Hux explained it to him, saying, "the computations are almost done".

It seemed like hours--maybe it's less than an hour but more like tens of minutes.

Also, remember that Hyperspace in Star Wars is a collection of freeways. It's a like a road map, with all the roads being various hyperspace routes.

So, in the comparison, the computer is basically trying to figure which road the Resistance took.

I think if you put some thought into it, you can shoot all kinds of holes into it, as you did above.

But, that's what the book says.

It did seem all-powerful in the film, and the book does come across as less powerful.



Limited use: I wonder, now that the technology is know, is it easily defeated.

Before, when hyperspace tracking was not possible, a ship would just jump.

Now that tracking is known as possible, jumps could be disguised. Jump somewhere in 10 minutes, while the tracking is still crunching your last trajectory. Then you jump again, somewhere else.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The narrator is spot on with "older" Luke's voice. It's uncanny. He does a great job narrating, but he nails the aged Luke. Deeper and less of a boyish tone.



The scene where Leia is blasted out into space is done well. Very internal. She "asks" the Force to help her. It's almost like praying. She sees a metaphorical ladder, and she asks the Force to help her climb it.

Another scene sees Leia thinking about Ben when he was a baby. This is done well, too. Even then, the Force was quite strong and violent in him. The baby would throw temper tantrums, and things would start flying off the wall.

Can you say Damien?



Rey has a strong connection with the Jedi Library. Luke names some of the books. There are ten or so of them, and they were written like a Christian Bible. They lay down the Jedi faith, as written by the founders of the faith.

Luke knows that Rey is an orphan--maybe through the Force? He just knows. So, this is somewhat telling about Rey's background. I still think that she's a clone...of Vader.

Although, it would be a hell of a twist is Rey ends up dying in Episode IX, and Ben comes over to the light to carry on the Skywalker name.

I don't think that will happen, though. Ben is too far gone. He killed his own father. Unforgivable.

Rey is drawn to the Jedi Library. She's seen it in her dreams. She knows that she's supposed to be there.

Luke says that he'll never train another Jedi. It's time for the faith to end--like he said in the film. But, he also says something to the effect, "My nightmare is to be sought out by all these young ones, all thinking that they're the Chosen One, all looking to learn how to lift rocks."
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I kind of liked the theory (after TFA) that Kylo Ren was in deep undercover, having been sent by Luke to destroy the First Order from within, and he needed to kill Han in order not to blow his cover—hence he asked Han for his “help” to do the deed. TLJ certainly seemed to throw cold water on this theory. However, thinking about Dark Empire where Luke did the same deep undercover thing, and how tinkering with the Dark Side was like a drug addiction where he lost control, it might be the same sort of thing. There’s hope for him yet.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Neat stuff ALERT!



Rose Explains the Hyperspace Tracker.

The book attempts to go into more detail about how the Tracker works. This is from that scene where Rose has stuff Finn and he is awakening from the stun. Finn's in a cart, and Rose is dragging him to inform the officers that Finn was caught deserting.

She says that computer technology is not where it needs to be in order to crunch all the numbers that would need crunching in order to figure out a flight plan. The computing capacity would be the size of a fleet of Star Destroyers--all dedicated to the one crunching problem.

Finn assures her that it is possible because it happened.

Then, Rose figures it out. If it is impossible to increase the raw computer power needed for the problem, then the only other answer, she says, is to speed up the processor.

She figures that the processor does not operate in normal space. It operates in hyperspace, where time, in normal space, is malleable. The processor must be contained in a Hyperspace bubble. But, even this, would take some extreme tech and some extremely heavy computing power.

Which is how they narrow it down to the Supremacy, Snoke's 60 km long MegaStarDestroyer that serves as the Capital for the First Order.







Rey's Training in the Force.

In the book, the "Force meeting moments" that Rey and Ben share are much more than just a method of communication. They share each others' thoughts--their memories.

This must be how Ben knows about Rey's parents--at least from Rey's memory of them.

Rey benefits from Ben's training. His memories become her memories--and all of a sudden, it is as if she has been trained, too--to the same level as Ben.
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
It operates in hyperspace, where time, in normal space, is malleable.

I'm having trouble with this one sentence. Where is time malleable? Hyperspace or normal space? With the two prepositional phrases in this sentence, I'm not sure what is even being said here, and I want to know before I respond.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
It operates in hyperspace, where time, in normal space, is malleable.

I'm having trouble with this one sentence. Where is time malleable? Hyperspace or normal space? With the two prepositional phrases in this sentence, I'm not sure what is even being said here, and I want to know before I respond.


Meaning that time can be adjusted, thus the processor moves faster from the point of view of those not in hyperspace.

The processor, in order to move at the rate necessary to make hyperspace tracking possible, operates in hyperspace. It exists in a hyperspace bubble created around it (inside the freakin' ship!)

It's supposed to be edge-of-technology new.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this on the net, and it does a good job of summing up what is presented in the book about hyperspace tracking.

Note that we shouldn't be seeing this in upcoming films unless a new technological breakthrough is made as it takes the computing power of a planetary intel hub (like the one on Supremacy).

Quote:
The First Order tracks targets through hyperspace using a combination of technological advances and brute-force data crunching. The shipboard tracking control complex boasts the data-sifting power of a planetary intel hub, linking huge computer arrays to databanks loaded with centuries of combat reports and astrogation data.

A static hyperspace field generated around the machines then accelerates their processing power to unheard-of levels. A targets last known trajectory yields trillions of potential destinations, but the system can assess them with terrifying speed.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

More stuff...

The original Jedi found their way to Ahch-to by following the Force. The Force led them to the world.

Luke does not think he could best a fully trained Ben Solo. Ben is the most powerful person in the Force that Luke has ever encountered...until he met Rey.

This was in the movie, but I thought it interesting. On the first lesson, Luke has Rey feel the Force. It is done quite well in the book. It's pretty neat. Rey is pulled to the Darkness, though, and she dives in, head first.

Luke has to slap her to get her out of the trance. It is here where Luke senses her power. And, it scares him because she went right for the Dark.

"It offered you something you needed, and you didn't even try to resist!"

That scares the heck out of Luke.





Luke's Lesson Two.

In the book, we see Luke's second lesson for Rey. I believe this, or part of it, was filmed and then cut from the film (as I've seen some of the out-takes on You-Tube for some of these scenes).

Luke says that the Jedi are mostly myth. They are LEGEND. And, the Order is revered because of that. But, if you strip away all of the Legend stuff, and just look at the facts, the Jedi Order is a failure.

At the height of the Jedi's power, they allowed Darth Vader to be created. They allowed the Sith--a single Sith--to destroy the entire Order and bring into existence the Empire, killing the Old Republic.

Luke remained the only Jedi for quite a while--until Ben Solo was born, and Luke saw the raw power in him. Luke was puffed up. He was THE LUKE SKYWALKER. And, he thought he could train Ben.

So, Ben was one of his first pupils--Ben Solo and about a dozen others.

But, Luke couldn't control Ben. Luke realized it, as we saw in the film, and Ben turned on him.

Some of Luke's pupils joined Ben (I'm guessing this is the creation of the Knights of Ren?). The rest, Ben and the others slaughtered.

In the wake of that defeat, Luke went into hiding, tracking down the original Jedi Temple on Ahch-To, reading the original Jedi texts, and finally deciding to cut himself off from the Force because he had lost faith in himself.

THIS SCENE, STARTING AT 6:28, IS IN THE BOOK.

In that scene, at the beginning, when she says that "Kylo failed you. I won't," in the book, Luke replies, "A student that wants to murder me and a student that wants to be me. I don't know what scares me more."

That scene I mention above really should have been in the film. It's powerful--and it really goes a long way to explain Luke's demons.
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Luke remained the only Jedi for quite a while--until Ben Solo was born

Sure "quite a while" is a relative term, but Ben was born less than a year after RotJ. Just saying.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Rose Explains the Hyperspace Tracker.... She figures that the processor does not operate in normal space. It operates in hyperspace, where time, in normal space, is malleable. The processor must be contained in a Hyperspace bubble.
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Meaning that time can be adjusted, thus the processor moves faster from the point of view of those not in hyperspace.

The processor, in order to move at the rate necessary to make hyperspace tracking possible, operates in hyperspace. It exists in a hyperspace bubble created around it (inside the freakin' ship!)

Thanks for the "clarification". I can now say this makes no sense. Hyperspace is another dimension. When you jump to lightspeed, you leave realspace and enter hyperspace. A physical object's gravity may exist in both dimensions simultaneously, but the object still only exists in one dimension or the other at any given time.

The purpose of hyperspace is to get around the time dilation during the acceleration to and deceleration from relativistic speeds, and to exceed the speed of light which is impossible in realspace. Velocity equals distance over time, so as the velocity increases the distance increases, but the time for the traveller remains virtually the same as time for those planetside. In other words, time simply doesn't move noticeably faster in hyperspace than for those moving no-relativistic speeds in realspace.

Hyperspace "bubble" around the processor? Sounds like it was inspired by Star Trek warp bubbles. "Hyperspace bubbles" are just inapplicable to increasing a computer's processing speed.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
Thanks for the "clarification". I can now say this makes no sense. Hyperspace is another dimension.


It is SW mumbo jumbo, of course, but I think it does make sense within the SW universe.

We've established that communication is possible with someone in that other dimension of Hyperspace, so data can be transmitted as well.

Time is different in Hyperspace. Moving across the galaxy takes hours instead of thousands or millions of years at lightspeed in the real space galaxy.

Manipulating that time difference, processing is faster.
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea of hyperspace computing works IF you can transmit information to and from hyperspace. If we assume that hyperspace-capable comms exist (and the movies imply that they do), you might be able to essentially set up a hyperspace computer, transmit commands from realspace, and get back data processed in hyperspace, at faster-than-light speeds.

I'm picturing something like a Holonet-enabled Beowulf cluster... instead of transmitting holographic images with sound, you send burst instructions to computers that think faster than light (i.e. faster than they can in realspace), and receive back your crunched numbers fairly rapidly. It requires some assumptions about hyperspace, but it works with what we've seen on screen.
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Whill wrote:
Thanks for the "clarification". I can now say this makes no sense. Hyperspace is another dimension.


It is SW mumbo jumbo, of course, but I think it does make sense within the SW universe.

We've established that communication is possible with someone in that other dimension of Hyperspace, so data can be transmitted as well.

Time is different in Hyperspace. Moving across the galaxy takes hours instead of thousands or millions of years at lightspeed in the real space galaxy.

Manipulating that time difference, processing is faster.


Ok, so, to restate this another way:

In realspace, time moves at its normal rate, like how we perceive. In hyperspace, time moves "faster." So, stick a processor in hyperspace and have it crunch numbers "faster" then transmit it to realspace. That all would make sense...except for the fact that it doesn't fit with everything else we see about hyperspace.

If it were true that time moved "faster" in hyperspace, then you'd end up seeing some kind of time dilation effect for people in relation to hyperspace. If hyperspace is moving "faster" than realspace, then people would exit hyperspace much older than when they went in, only to find that the people outside hyperspace hadn't aged. The only way around this would be if hyperspace jumps take literally only seconds to cross distances in the galaxy, while the people INSIDE hyperspace are aging normally. But then that would mean that the people exiting hyperspace are actually much older, so the longer a hyperspace jump, the older someone would be when they exited.

Basically, we see people exit hyperspace looking exactly the same age as when they enter it. Likewise, the people they're meeting who were outside of hyperspace look exactly the same age. The implication, therefore, is that time doesn't move any differently between either. If time moves faster inside hyperspace, then the people exiting hyperspace would be horribly aged. The only way this makes sense with the time dilation is if most hyperspace jumps are basically so fast in realspace-time and fast enough in hyperspace-time that you only end up losing like maybe a couple hours here or there. So, jumping from Tatooine to Alderaan, Luke spends, let's say, 5 hours on the Falcon, but when they exit hyperspace, it's like 2 minutes after they left Tatooine in realspace-time. So, you'd "lose" time in hyperspace, but it would be such a negligible amount per-jump that it wouldn't matter overall. Long-term spacers, though, would end up aging a lot faster than grounders, however, simply by virtue of the volume of jumps they take and the total time they spend in hyperspace.

What makes a lot more sense to me is that hyperspace distorts distance rather than time. Time passes exactly the same within and without hyperspace, but because hyperspace is a different dimension, distance is shortened.

Bottom line, this bit in the book seems poorly conceived of, and it probably makes more sense to say "They've created a time dilation device!" or said that the computer got a Time Turner from Professor Dumbeldore, and left "hyperspace" out of it altogether.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luke's Third Lesson.

Doesn't happen. Rey gets fed up with whiny, sorry-for-himself Luke and loses faith in him. She prepares to leave him behind. If he won't help, she sure will.



What is more clear in the book--something that I think should have been made more prominent in the film--is Luke's interactions with Ben Solo.

Ben is the most powerful Force user that Luke has ever encountered. More raw power than Emperor Palpatine. Potentially stronger than Darth Vader. He's a power so strong that Luke felt he should kill his own nephew--his beloved sister's child--his best friend's son.

In the book, Rey links to Ben Solo's mind one last time, and it seems that his version of what happened is probably closer to the truth than what Luke describes. Remember, in the film, the two stories are slightly, but significantly, different. It is hard to Ben to like with Rey in his head, feeling his feelings, remembering his thoughts.

Luke is full of regret. This ties both the first two films of this trilogy together. The scene in TFA where Luke is with R2 among the fiery ruins of his Jedi school--that links to this incident.

Luke, going into exile for a decade or so, links to this incident.

Luke, cutting himself off from the Force, links to this incident.

And, Luke's conclusion that the Jedi must die--for he, himself was full of hubris thinking that he could train Ben, only to find out that he broke the family of his best friend and twin sister and then ended up threatening the entire galaxy--all because of Luke's prideful actions--all links to the incident with Ben and Luke.




There is a nice scene where Luke re-connects himself with the Force. It's all internal--so it might not have worked in the film. But, in the book, I thought it pretty cool.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, let's remember, I didn't create this stuff. I'm just reporting what is said in the novelization.




Solo4114 wrote:
If it were true that time moved "faster" in hyperspace, then you'd end up seeing some kind of time dilation effect for people in relation to hyperspace.


Physics are different in Hyperspace.

A ship can move to a distance of 100 lightyears in a short time period--let's call it 3 hours.

In real space, moving faster than light is not possible, and traveling near the speed of light would take 100 years.

So, what's happening with this ultimate-edge-technology, that requires a planetary hub's equivalent of computing power even with the special processor, is that hyperspace relationship is somehow being manipulated so that processing speed is much, much faster than is possible with present-day tech.

Getting into the raw details of this is a quagmire that is akin to trying to figure out how hyperspace really works.

We don't really know. We know some things. We generally know some "big picture" ideas about hyperspace. But, we really can't say how using hyperspace works.

The same goes for this processor.

It sounds good in a Space Opera universe. If you accept that hyperspace works as we see in the Star Wars films, then it's not a leap at all to accept this processor.
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PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, it is not that much of a stretch to accept a "high speed" processor. No "hyperspace bubble" is even needed for that. Actually I didn't need any gobbledygook at all for hyperspace tracking. For a space opera, sometimes less is more. Wajeb, you pointedly reported the explanation as interesting or meaningful, and now you are more than just reporting it. I criticized it, and then you defended it. There's a discussion. Furthermore, TLJ seems to be contradicting previous films which established that you could track through hyperspace...

Quote:
Darth Vader: Alert all commands. Calculate every possible destination along their last known trajectory.
Admiral Piett: Yes, my Lord. We'll find them.

And Vader tracked Leia from Scarif to Tatooine. So it doesn't seem so "impossible" anyway.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
It is SW mumbo jumbo, of course, but I think it does make sense within the SW universe.

No. That's what I'm saying. Altering time doesn't make sense even within the SWU. It flies in the face of verisimilitude.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
We've established that communication is possible with someone in that other dimension of Hyperspace, so data can be transmitted as well.

Indeed, data can be transmitted through hyperspace at FTL speeds, but not because time is different in hyperspace. It's because matter and energy can move FTL

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Time is different in Hyperspace. Moving across the galaxy takes hours instead of thousands or millions of years at lightspeed in the real space galaxy.

The whole point of hyperspace is that time is not different in hyperspace. There are two factors of velocity: distance and time. For all intents and purposes time flows at virtually the same rate in hyperspace as real space, so that makes time a constant. If time is a constant, then the other two factors are the ones that change. The laws of physics are different in hyperspace. The differences are that you can exceed the maximum velocity of realspace, and that there is no time dilation.

v=d/t. Moving a higher speed is how you travel a greater distance in the same amount of time, not by time flowing differently. If you instead keep the distance constant (like comparing a specific journey through both realspace and hyperspace in your example), the reason that the time decreases in hyperspace is because the velocity increased, not because time flows differently.

Solo4114 wrote:
it doesn't fit with everything else we see about hyperspace.

If it were true that time moved "faster" in hyperspace, then you'd end up seeing some kind of time dilation effect for people in relation to hyperspace. If hyperspace is moving "faster" than realspace, then people would exit hyperspace much older than when they went in, only to find that the people outside hyperspace hadn't aged. The only way around this would be if hyperspace jumps take literally only seconds to cross distances in the galaxy, while the people INSIDE hyperspace are aging normally. But then that would mean that the people exiting hyperspace are actually much older, so the longer a hyperspace jump, the older someone would be when they exited.

Basically, we see people exit hyperspace looking exactly the same age as when they enter it. Likewise, the people they're meeting who were outside of hyperspace look exactly the same age. The implication, therefore, is that time doesn't move any differently between either. If time moves faster inside hyperspace, then the people exiting hyperspace would be horribly aged. The only way this makes sense with the time dilation is if most hyperspace jumps are basically so fast in realspace-time and fast enough in hyperspace-time that you only end up losing like maybe a couple hours here or there. So, jumping from Tatooine to Alderaan, Luke spends, let's say, 5 hours on the Falcon, but when they exit hyperspace, it's like 2 minutes after they left Tatooine in realspace-time. So, you'd "lose" time in hyperspace, but it would be such a negligible amount per-jump that it wouldn't matter overall. Long-term spacers, though, would end up aging a lot faster than grounders, however, simply by virtue of the volume of jumps they take and the total time they spend in hyperspace.

Yes, Solo4114 hit the nail on the head. There's negligible time dilation in hyperspace travel in the films and other media. Time is flowing at the same rate on ships traveling lightspeed as it flows on the surface of planets. So in v=d/t, t is not the variable that changing between realspace and hyperspace.

Solo4114 wrote:
What makes a lot more sense to me is that hyperspace distorts distance rather than time. Time passes exactly the same within and without hyperspace, but because hyperspace is a different dimension, distance is shortened.

That's one explanation. Hyperspace is coterminous with realspace, meaning that for every point in hyperspace there exists a corresponding point in realspace. So this explanation could work if hyperspace is greatly condensed space compared to realspace. But this is somewhat like the explanation I personally use for subspace, kinda like an Ant-Man 'quantum realm' thing. (However subspace drive was a pre-Republic, pre-hyperdrive FTL that damaged the space-time continuum and was eventually abandoned. Now subspace is only used for communications with subspace radio.) So in v=d/t, my subspace lowers the travel time by lowering the distance. Hyperspace lowers the time travel time by increasing the velocity.

Solo4114 wrote:
Bottom line, this bit in the book seems poorly conceived of, and it probably makes more sense to say "They've created a time dilation device!" or said that the computer got a Time Turner from Professor Dumbeldore, and left "hyperspace" out of it altogether.

LOL

MrNexx wrote:
The idea of hyperspace computing works IF you can transmit information to and from hyperspace. If we assume that hyperspace-capable comms exist (and the movies imply that they do), you might be able to essentially set up a hyperspace computer, transmit commands from realspace, and get back data processed in hyperspace, at faster-than-light speeds.

I'm picturing something like a Holonet-enabled Beowulf cluster... instead of transmitting holographic images with sound, you send burst instructions to computers that think faster than light (i.e. faster than they can in realspace), and receive back your crunched numbers fairly rapidly. It requires some assumptions about hyperspace, but it works with what we've seen on screen.

If the speed of light is a limitation to computational power, then computers networked through the holonet (which uses hypernet transceivers and thus hyperspace) could increase the computational power of a computer system. The "hyperspace bubble" seems to be a non-network version where the processing speed of the single computer is sped up by using hyper-transmissions within the bubble. This is probably what the author was shooting for, but again, this works because the velocity of the transmissions is increased, not because time is in any way altered.
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