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Missiles, Torpedos - Targeting and hitting Problems
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 3:07 am    Post subject: Missiles, Torpedos - Targeting and hitting Problems Reply with quote

Has anyone meaningful rules for targeting and hitting?

From my point of view the RAW are inkonsisten, unrealistic and additonally very inefficent.

We play with the search value of the sensors as the starting point for the range

i would be very grateful if someone has useable rules for this theme
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you explain what characteristics of the rules you don't like?

Some things that I think would improve the "realism" of the system would be to allow pilots to outmaneuver the enemy's targeting system.

This is more or less covered by concepts like a ship's maneuverability dice, the weapon's fire control dice, and the turn sequence itself (attack roll triggers reaction roll).

There are some rules in one of the source books that give bonuses or penalties on attack rolls depending on the results of a prior opposed piloting check. I could see expanding this to allow a defending pilot to outmaneuver the enemy's targeting system. For example, for every 5 points over 30 (or choose your own numbers) that the defender rolls, he negates 1D of the attacker's fire control. I might say that he negates all of it or none of it (so, in order to overcome 2D fire control, he must roll 40; a roll of 39 would be insufficient to overcome the more advanced system than the 1D system; likewise, a 45 negates all the dice up to 3D, but none of the dice of a 4D fire control system).
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Can you explain what characteristics of the rules you don't like?

Some things that I think would improve the "realism" of the system would be to allow pilots to outmaneuver the enemy's targeting system.

This is more or less covered by concepts like a ship's maneuverability dice, the weapon's fire control dice, and the turn sequence itself (attack roll triggers reaction roll).

There are some rules in one of the source books that give bonuses or penalties on attack rolls depending on the results of a prior opposed piloting check. I could see expanding this to allow a defending pilot to outmaneuver the enemy's targeting system. For example, for every 5 points over 30 (or choose your own numbers) that the defender rolls, he negates 1D of the attacker's fire control. I might say that he negates all of it or none of it (so, in order to overcome 2D fire control, he must roll 40; a roll of 39 would be insufficient to overcome the more advanced system than the 1D system; likewise, a 45 negates all the dice up to 3D, but none of the dice of a 4D fire control system).


Ok i will try Smile


- ridiculous range compared to Laser Weapons

- No Distinction in the difficulty to hit from a Space Value of 6

- can i outrun a Missile/Torpdeo?

- Can i dodge a Missile/Torpedo? If yes then how?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denderan marajain wrote:
Naaman wrote:
Can you explain what characteristics of the rules you don't like?

Some things that I think would improve the "realism" of the system would be to allow pilots to outmaneuver the enemy's targeting system.

This is more or less covered by concepts like a ship's maneuverability dice, the weapon's fire control dice, and the turn sequence itself (attack roll triggers reaction roll).

There are some rules in one of the source books that give bonuses or penalties on attack rolls depending on the results of a prior opposed piloting check. I could see expanding this to allow a defending pilot to outmaneuver the enemy's targeting system. For example, for every 5 points over 30 (or choose your own numbers) that the defender rolls, he negates 1D of the attacker's fire control. I might say that he negates all of it or none of it (so, in order to overcome 2D fire control, he must roll 40; a roll of 39 would be insufficient to overcome the more advanced system than the 1D system; likewise, a 45 negates all the dice up to 3D, but none of the dice of a 4D fire control system).


Ok i will try Smile


- ridiculous range compared to Laser Weapons

- No Distinction in the difficulty to hit from a Space Value of 6

- can i outrun a Missile/Torpdeo?

- Can i dodge a Missile/Torpedo? If yes then how?


Outrunning and dodging a missile can be done by making the misslie a "ship" then using possible collision rules, with missile damage.

As to the range, I would actually allow this my self, seeing the range of earth air to air and surface to air missiles and above the horizon targeting systems.

as to the distiction to hit hit from a space speed of 6 I don't know really, maybe 6 is the missile's max speed?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Can you explain what characteristics of the rules you don't like?

Some things that I think would improve the "realism" of the system would be to allow pilots to outmaneuver the enemy's targeting system.


To ME one of the biggest issues with the whole missile system rules, is you get a target lock, that's it. YOU hit. Add to that the very short range of missiles, it doesn't allow for some of the cinematic maneuvering we see in many air fights from modern or WW2 like films, where they are duking and dodging all over the place.. I'd have liked to see a 2 or even 3 stage to missiles, first target lock (opposed gunnery vs maneuver roll), onec lock's established the missile fires and has its OWN speed/duration, where how far you are away, the more time the target has to try and break the lock (re-rolling his vehicle dodge), maybe even adding in counter measures (flares/chaff).
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Outrunning and dodging a missile can be done by making the misslie a "ship" then using possible collision rules, with missile damage.


can you give me an example? i have no idea how this should work?

Quote:
as to the distiction to hit hit from a space speed of 6 I don't know really, maybe 6 is the missile's max speed?


if this IS the maximum speed then a missile can not hit any starfighter oder capital ship with Space 6+???

@Garhkal

Thanks . i really forgot this one
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denderan marajain wrote:
Quote:
Outrunning and dodging a missile can be done by making the misslie a "ship" then using possible collision rules, with missile damage.


can you give me an example? i have no idea how this should work?

Quote:
as to the distiction to hit hit from a space speed of 6 I don't know really, maybe 6 is the missile's max speed?


if this IS the maximum speed then a missile can not hit any starfighter oder capital ship with Space 6+???

@Garhkal

Thanks . i really forgot this one


technically a missile chasing a starfighter, is no different than a starfighter chasing a starfighter.
the only real difference is the size and how the attack works.

A missile chasing then hitting is not technically different than two starships crashing.

However the missile do not fire, a starfighter do, so the missile would then hit by a collision.
this is the damage the missile deals on a hit.
the chase is technically the same as ship vs ship
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
denderan marajain wrote:
Quote:
Outrunning and dodging a missile can be done by making the misslie a "ship" then using possible collision rules, with missile damage.


can you give me an example? i have no idea how this should work?

Quote:
as to the distiction to hit hit from a space speed of 6 I don't know really, maybe 6 is the missile's max speed?


if this IS the maximum speed then a missile can not hit any starfighter oder capital ship with Space 6+???

@Garhkal

Thanks . i really forgot this one


technically a missile chasing a starfighter, is no different than a starfighter chasing a starfighter.
the only real difference is the size and how the attack works.

A missile chasing then hitting is not technically different than two starships crashing.

However the missile do not fire, a starfighter do, so the missile would then hit by a collision.
this is the damage the missile deals on a hit.
the chase is technically the same as ship vs ship


I do not understand what you are getting at

In a Starfighter Combat i have a dodge roll and a attack roll and probably a Starfighter piloting roll depending on the terrain.

Neither doding nor piloting is important for a rocket/missile/Torpedo

can you enlighten me?
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denderan marajain wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
denderan marajain wrote:
Quote:
Outrunning and dodging a missile can be done by making the misslie a "ship" then using possible collision rules, with missile damage.


can you give me an example? i have no idea how this should work?

Quote:
as to the distiction to hit hit from a space speed of 6 I don't know really, maybe 6 is the missile's max speed?


if this IS the maximum speed then a missile can not hit any starfighter oder capital ship with Space 6+???

@Garhkal

Thanks . i really forgot this one


technically a missile chasing a starfighter, is no different than a starfighter chasing a starfighter.
the only real difference is the size and how the attack works.

A missile chasing then hitting is not technically different than two starships crashing.

However the missile do not fire, a starfighter do, so the missile would then hit by a collision.
this is the damage the missile deals on a hit.
the chase is technically the same as ship vs ship


I do not understand what you are getting at

In a Starfighter Combat i have a dodge roll and a attack roll and probably a Starfighter piloting roll depending on the terrain.

Neither doding nor piloting is important for a rocket/missile/Torpedo

can you enlighten me?


How do you outrun another starfighter?

That is how you do it with a missile.

The missile is fired, it has speed x and fired from a distance of y.
now you roll as if this was not a missile but another starfighter with speed X
and if need be a maneuver that the GM finds likely, watching the movies and the missiles used there they seem to not have a very high maneyver, as they do have a very wide turning arch.

so think that the missile is a starfighter.....there have the chase.
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
How do you outrun another starfighter?

That is how you do it with a missile.

The missile is fired, it has speed x and fired from a distance of y.
now you roll as if this was not a missile but another starfighter with speed X
and if need be a maneuver that the GM finds likely, watching the movies and the missiles used there they seem to not have a very high maneyver, as they do have a very wide turning arch.

so think that the missile is a starfighter.....there have the chase.


Thanks
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denderan marajain wrote:
Quote:
How do you outrun another starfighter?

That is how you do it with a missile.

The missile is fired, it has speed x and fired from a distance of y.
now you roll as if this was not a missile but another starfighter with speed X
and if need be a maneuver that the GM finds likely, watching the movies and the missiles used there they seem to not have a very high maneyver, as they do have a very wide turning arch.

so think that the missile is a starfighter.....there have the chase.


Thanks


it is not the book way of doing it, but I found it simple.

the missile hits with a collision
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Missile Skill" = Gunnery + Fire Control?
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you get MAPS if you have multiple missiles in a salvo?

Can one combine fire with missiles?

What if you launch a missile, and its time to target is multiple rounds - do you get MAPS if you launch another missile?

What if there's electronic warfare in the area?

What if jamming was started AFTER you launched the missile, but BEFORE it hits - do you need to reroll?

What does it actually MEAN to 'lock on' missiles, in a game mechanical sense?

What happens to the missile if the starfighter that initially launched the missile gets disabled or destroyed, but the missile hasn't hit yet?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zarn wrote:
Do you get MAPS if you have multiple missiles in a salvo?


If firing multiple missiles singularly, then yes you do get MAPS.

Zarn wrote:
Can one combine fire with missiles?


IF firing multiple launchers all as one bunch, then yes, you can combine fire.. THat's what Trench run disease is done for.. a squadron of X-wings (or Y wings) all fire link their torps and fire as ONE unit, to take down the shields of an ISD (or other cap ship)..

Zarn wrote:
What if you launch a missile, and its time to target is multiple rounds - do you get MAPS if you launch another missile?


Since in game the RAW has such short ranges on missiles, you'd never get a situation where you have multiple rounds to target, ergo this is a moot question.

Zarn wrote:
What if there's electronic warfare in the area?


Then that should affect the initial target lock.

Zarn wrote:
What if jamming was started AFTER you launched the missile, but BEFORE it hits - do you need to reroll?


WE'd first off have to redo the missile rules to allow for multiple rounds to targets, much like CRCM did (iirc), where each missile type has a speed rating, a 'continuing target lock' rating and an endurance rating..
Then if the target runs through ECM after being locked onto, the missile would roll its "CTL" skill to see if it stays locked on.

Zarn wrote:

What happens to the missile if the starfighter that initially launched the missile gets disabled or destroyed, but the missile hasn't hit yet?


Nothing. Missiles are fire and forget. Not like spells in an ADND game where concentration's often needed to maintain the effect.
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You cannot dodge it if you do not know it is coming, and you cannot hit it if you do not know its there.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool; I've actually always wondered about that - I wasn't being facetious. I think I'll have to look into having missiles take more rounds to reach their target, though - the range of missiles or torpedoes should be significant enough that they have a few rounds of drive juice before petering out and coast to their targets. Or self destruct.

I'll need to have a look at what CRMcNeill's cooked up to see whether I can use some of that.
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