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Why Powergaming does not exist
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
When you Roleplay you play a role.

You do not necessarily play an 'ultimate' version of that role.

When a player contrives to make an 'ultimate' version of that role is a power gamer.


Exactly.

And, I'll add, that a real roleplayer may, indeed, play an ultimate version of the role. The difference is, the roleplayer doesn't do that all the time.

People who like point buy are usually people who are more power gamers, in my experience, are red flags for power gamers.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
The paladin is playable, but would someone without high, and then it is a debate what is high, attributes in his class' attributes be a wiser choice than not.


I first want to state that anything I say here is not meant to ruffle feathers. I enjoy your posts, Mamatried.

When I read the above, it seems that you don't think a less "efficient" (let's call it) paladin character would be as fun to play.

A roleplayer looks deep at what a character is, no matter his stats, and plays him to his best ability.

I bet it could be quite fun playing a paladin with the bare minimum stats to be a paladin--the roleplaying angle being that the poor guy is the Duke's nephew and put into the position that is over his head--one that he's not qualified to lead.

Or, to take a different roleplaying approach, what about playing a paladin with bare minimum stats as the "Rudy" (remember that movie?) of the paladins--a squire that prayed to his god to be a paladin his entire life, and then, by circumstance, he found himself among his heroes.

Both of those would be interesting angles from a roleplayer's perspective. I think that they're much more interesting, and human, than your standard bad-@$$, high stat paladin.



BTW, in D6 Star Wars, 2D is human average. 4D is a professional level skill.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
The paladin is playable, but would someone without high, and then it is a debate what is high, attributes in his class' attributes be a wiser choice than not.


I first want to state that anything I say here is not meant to ruffle feathers. I enjoy your posts, Mamatried.

When I read the above, it seems that you don't think a less "efficient" (let's call it) paladin character would be as fun to play.

A roleplayer looks deep at what a character is, no matter his stats, and plays him to his best ability.

I bet it could be quite fun playing a paladin with the bare minimum stats to be a paladin--the roleplaying angle being that the poor guy is the Duke's nephew and put into the position that is over his head--one that he's not qualified to lead.

Or, to take a different roleplaying approach, what about playing a paladin with bare minimum stats as the "Rudy" (remember that movie?) of the paladins--a squire that prayed to his god to be a paladin his entire life, and then, by circumstance, he found himself among his heroes.

Both of those would be interesting angles from a roleplayer's perspective. I think that they're much more interesting, and human, than your standard bad-@$$, high stat paladin.



BTW, in D6 Star Wars, 2D is human average. 4D is a professional level skill.



Ohhh yes playing a paladin with low skills can be great fun, but that does not make the other player in my group a power player when he due to me playing a less than adept paladin takes some of the spotlight I could have had.

And it seems from a consensus on line here and there and everywhere that one that "takes all the action" and have a character either made for that or "happen to have" the stat to back it up is thus not a power player.

Had the paladin not chosen a path of ineptitude then the "power player" would not be a spotlight stealer, or rather....having to take the spot light.

so yes it can be great fun, but it does not make the other's powerplayer when my chosen ineptitude makes me the last action "hero", rather than the first or second, or even depending on how much I want to role play and not roleplay I could end up having a cool character that can not contribute.

And yes 2D is average, 4D is professional enough to "live as a mechanic with 4D" but usually in a group the one best suited for the job does the job, if then a natural pilot 4D Mech, chooses to not take more skill in pilot he is at 4D, if the 3D Mech character then chooses because it makes sense for the template, background etc 2D to some piloting he then ends up being the pilot.
if he and odds are he might have higher dex, he is also better at combat.
then the 4D pilot all of a sudden finds it hard to have a role, because his choices, not because the other ones steal the glory or hinders him
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
Well, it may be off topic...but all this talk of Paladins...I'm going to put this in here.

When I was running a D&D for a long time, I found a lot of players who wanted the Paladin for the 'powers'. It then became awkward watching them stumble with the paladin's code and ethos.

Some warnings etc. But it stretched my own suspension of disbelief that a powerfully divine being would look upon this person and bestow their blessings (in the pre-game character's background) only to watch them pay mere lip service to the ideaology that is supposed to go with it.


I agree. I know many who've wanted to play paladins for just the powers, but balk at the downsides/restrictions..

Dredwulf60 wrote:
So...I made Paladin a prestige character of sorts.

The player makes a fighter...and the character LIVES the lifestyle and ideals of a paladin. If they move up a few levels without major stumbles and accumulate a number of Renown points (a bit of a score card on how they live up to the code) then they earn the powers and abilities of a Paladin.

Suddenly...only people who were serious about roleplaying a paladin wanted one.

As compensation, I actually boosted the abilities of a paladin a bit to balance the levels of doing without.


That sounds like a cool Idea. Make it so you can't start as a paladin but have to earn it.

Mamatried wrote:
The paladin is playable, but would someone without high, and then it is a debate what is high, attributes in his class' attributes be a wiser choice than not.

If we look at that system in particular, though the principal can be applied to almost any system, we see that a 12 giving a +1 is not considered high, it is however slightly above average,
a 14 or a +2 is also in general not considered high, but way above average.
a 16 at a +3 is high, and even up to very high.


Well in a 1e or 2e sense, a 14 or lower generally does NOT give any bonuses. So with that attribute spread, your cha would grant a lot of bonuses for NPC reacion and loyalty, while the 15 str wouldn't give anything to combat (but at least would allow you to only be lightly encumbered with the heavier armor).. BUT if pushed to Con would give you a HP boost... So you have 2 stats high (giving bonuses), 2 above average, 2 average (being called anything between 9 and 12), and 1 below average (the Cool but still not to the point of giving any stat penalty..

Mamatried wrote:
Now if I was not adept at casting spells, meaning I was at least on a 14, then I would honestly not call me heroic but mediocre.


As a paladin in 1 or 2nd ed, you don't gain casting till a latter level (9th!). So that's not much of a worry..

Mamatried wrote:
I was not talking about non jedi starters, what I am saying is that if you start out a 18D non force skills but force sensitive ( does not give automatic D or pip to force skills) then you are by default more pweful at 2D in the force skills than any born and life long trained jedi at 2D, given he only have 15D to attributes.


Not really, since that 2d force/15d other attributes, actually starts the game WITH some force powers and skills. where as the 18d guy who is just force sensitive has NO powers in the force, he just starts with the CAPACITY To learn the force at a later date..
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Dredwulf60 wrote:
Well, it may be off topic...but all this talk of Paladins...I'm going to put this in here.

When I was running a D&D for a long time, I found a lot of players who wanted the Paladin for the 'powers'. It then became awkward watching them stumble with the paladin's code and ethos.

Some warnings etc. But it stretched my own suspension of disbelief that a powerfully divine being would look upon this person and bestow their blessings (in the pre-game character's background) only to watch them pay mere lip service to the ideaology that is supposed to go with it.


I agree. I know many who've wanted to play paladins for just the powers, but balk at the downsides/restrictions..

Dredwulf60 wrote:
So...I made Paladin a prestige character of sorts.

The player makes a fighter...and the character LIVES the lifestyle and ideals of a paladin. If they move up a few levels without major stumbles and accumulate a number of Renown points (a bit of a score card on how they live up to the code) then they earn the powers and abilities of a Paladin.

Suddenly...only people who were serious about roleplaying a paladin wanted one.

As compensation, I actually boosted the abilities of a paladin a bit to balance the levels of doing without.


That sounds like a cool Idea. Make it so you can't start as a paladin but have to earn it.

Mamatried wrote:
The paladin is playable, but would someone without high, and then it is a debate what is high, attributes in his class' attributes be a wiser choice than not.

If we look at that system in particular, though the principal can be applied to almost any system, we see that a 12 giving a +1 is not considered high, it is however slightly above average,
a 14 or a +2 is also in general not considered high, but way above average.
a 16 at a +3 is high, and even up to very high.


Well in a 1e or 2e sense, a 14 or lower generally does NOT give any bonuses. So with that attribute spread, your cha would grant a lot of bonuses for NPC reacion and loyalty, while the 15 str wouldn't give anything to combat (but at least would allow you to only be lightly encumbered with the heavier armor).. BUT if pushed to Con would give you a HP boost... So you have 2 stats high (giving bonuses), 2 above average, 2 average (being called anything between 9 and 12), and 1 below average (the Cool but still not to the point of giving any stat penalty..

Mamatried wrote:
Now if I was not adept at casting spells, meaning I was at least on a 14, then I would honestly not call me heroic but mediocre.


As a paladin in 1 or 2nd ed, you don't gain casting till a latter level (9th!). So that's not much of a worry..

Mamatried wrote:
I was not talking about non jedi starters, what I am saying is that if you start out a 18D non force skills but force sensitive ( does not give automatic D or pip to force skills) then you are by default more pweful at 2D in the force skills than any born and life long trained jedi at 2D, given he only have 15D to attributes.


Not really, since that 2d force/15d other attributes, actually starts the game WITH some force powers and skills. where as the 18d guy who is just force sensitive has NO powers in the force, he just starts with the CAPACITY To learn the force at a later date..



Yes and no to the last one here.

If you take a template, lets say the young jedi ( yes I know not original but still) we start out with 15 D attributes +3D force skills for a total of 18.
The yu take a force trained template you still have 18D , but only 15 to attributes. making it inferior to any non force sensitive one.


15+3
18

These are the numbers

if we go beyond start, we come to the point where the non force sensitive and the force sensitive both have the instructor, ans can learn by cost of cp any skill they want, as long as they qualify.

We look at the jedi.....he starts with 1D in each force skill, and thus have only a poweredge during creation, once the mission is over he is the weakest in the group, provided he is not the only one force sensitive.

if we advance this character and go to 3D in each of the orce skills, and advances the same with one that didn't start force sensitive we have a difference of noting much really.

it cost actually only 3x1C pr 1D in force skills after creation for the non force user base template.
The cost will rise, but theis one does not need in the same degree to focus on anything but gaining force...a jedi has to focus on everything else..

no matter how you look at it, the force sensitive Bount Hunter, with CP spent to advance to 3D in CAS, is superior to any "jedi" template at 3D CAS, this due to the latter starting with 3D less to attributes.


this is what happened to the non force trained with the mere capacity......
he will at 3D+18D Atributes be superior to any "jedi" with 3D+15Dto attributes.

claiming otherwise is false. period
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that mamatried has had some bad experiences with being called a power gamer because his created character (s) were reasonably skilled for their selected trade and one or more others had spread themselves too thin and were ineffective in their supposed occupations. This then caused hard feelings because mamtried's character seemed tailored specifically to the class/ occupation.

If that's the case, it seems to me to be a matter of taste and play style, not power gaming.

I think the issue here is the provocative name of this thread! Smile

I think all of us have seen true Power Gamers at one point or another and can attest that it actually, does indeed exist!
A beast of various commonality, but a real beast.

Just not in mamatried's examples.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:
It seems to me that mamatried has had some bad experiences with being called a power gamer because his created character (s) were reasonably skilled for their selected trade and one or more others had spread themselves too thin and were ineffective in their supposed occupations. This then caused hard feelings because mamtried's character seemed tailored specifically to the class/ occupation.

If that's the case, it seems to me to be a matter of taste and play style, not power gaming.

I think the issue here is the provocative name of this thread! Smile

I think all of us have seen true Power Gamers at one point or another and can attest that it actually, does indeed exist!
A beast of various commonality, but a real beast.

Just not in mamatried's examples.


to me a power gamer is a fighter in d20 with 18 in all attributes, and acting like an a-hole by actively around the table hogging the spotlight.
and ONLY that.
if for any reason any other player have "downplayed" their character the matter is different.

If the rogue decided to place 12 in dex rather than 14 or 16 ( if he had 16) then the fighter how may as a result be the better sneak is NOT in any way powergaming.

Powergaming= character that can do all........is false.
character not allowed by RAW and cheated = powergamer.


there is no rule that states that a character has to be sub par, if you or al but one chose to pay sub par character, then one not choosing so is not and can not in any way shape or form be a powerplayer.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:

if we go beyond start, we come to the point where the non force sensitive and the force sensitive both have the instructor, ans can learn by cost of cp any skill they want, as long as they qualify.


BUT you are making the assumption that the player of the FS not only can find an instructor, but convince him to train them, AND has 30cp lying around to purchase that first D in the three force powers..

Mamatried wrote:
We look at the jedi.....he starts with 1D in each force skill, and thus have only a poweredge during creation, once the mission is over he is the weakest in the group, provided he is not the only one force sensitive.


That depends on what his force powers are.. Concentration, often one of the first taken for jedi pcs, is a game changer as it allows him to take his 3d skill in many stuff he has, and bump it to 7d.. for one action. Often making him higher than many other pcs are in that one skill, for that one action.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Mamatried wrote:

if we go beyond start, we come to the point where the non force sensitive and the force sensitive both have the instructor, ans can learn by cost of cp any skill they want, as long as they qualify.


BUT you are making the assumption that the player of the FS not only can find an instructor, but convince him to train them, AND has 30cp lying around to purchase that first D in the three force powers..

Mamatried wrote:
We look at the jedi.....he starts with 1D in each force skill, and thus have only a poweredge during creation, once the mission is over he is the weakest in the group, provided he is not the only one force sensitive.


That depends on what his force powers are.. Concentration, often one of the first taken for jedi pcs, is a game changer as it allows him to take his 3d skill in many stuff he has, and bump it to 7d.. for one action. Often making him higher than many other pcs are in that one skill, for that one action.


Meh... I'm not buying it.

Your experience is what it is, and I'm not discounting it. But your post assumes that the GM "didn't know" during character creation that the FS non-Jedi wanted to make such a character and later become a Jedi. In other words, the GM said, "you can be FS, but I'm may or may not give you a teacher, ever," and then the player still decided to go through with creating that character.

If the GM approved the character, then it's well within reason to assume that there is a teacher somewhere in the works.

All this talk of paladins is rather apt: you yourself have said that they have cool powers, but are bound by a strict code. Many players will shun the paladin in order to avoid that code. It's the same for Jedi: they deserve the "extra" power since they are restrained by a code of ethics/morals, which balances out their "uber" stats.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Mamatried wrote:

if we go beyond start, we come to the point where the non force sensitive and the force sensitive both have the instructor, ans can learn by cost of cp any skill they want, as long as they qualify.


BUT you are making the assumption that the player of the FS not only can find an instructor, but convince him to train them, AND has 30cp lying around to purchase that first D in the three force powers..

Mamatried wrote:
We look at the jedi.....he starts with 1D in each force skill, and thus have only a poweredge during creation, once the mission is over he is the weakest in the group, provided he is not the only one force sensitive.


That depends on what his force powers are.. Concentration, often one of the first taken for jedi pcs, is a game changer as it allows him to take his 3d skill in many stuff he has, and bump it to 7d.. for one action. Often making him higher than many other pcs are in that one skill, for that one action.


Meh... I'm not buying it.

Your experience is what it is, and I'm not discounting it. But your post assumes that the GM "didn't know" during character creation that the FS non-Jedi wanted to make such a character and later become a Jedi. In other words, the GM said, "you can be FS, but I'm may or may not give you a teacher, ever," and then the player still decided to go through with creating that character.

If the GM approved the character, then it's well within reason to assume that there is a teacher somewhere in the works.

All this talk of paladins is rather apt: you yourself have said that they have cool powers, but are bound by a strict code. Many players will shun the paladin in order to avoid that code. It's the same for Jedi: they deserve the "extra" power since they are restrained by a code of ethics/morals, which balances out their "uber" stats.



My point was actualy that the jedi didn't have the power they deserve.

they are 15D +3D force skills, vs 18D +0D Force skills.

When both the non jedi and the jedi are equal in force skill Dice. 2D to each or 3D each, then the jedi is still 3D to attributes underpowered.

Is a teacher that actually only helps to learn more powers faster, worth a 3D to attrinbutes difference?

So I would argue that the jedi is underpowered really and very much so
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:

Your experience is what it is, and I'm not discounting it. But your post assumes that the GM "didn't know" during character creation that the FS non-Jedi wanted to make such a character and later become a Jedi. In other words, the GM said, "you can be FS, but I'm may or may not give you a teacher, ever," and then the player still decided to go through with creating that character.

If the GM approved the character, then it's well within reason to assume that there is a teacher somewhere in the works.


I've often had players want to play a FS character, but have no desire to get forcepowers. ALL cause of the whole "cap" NFS characters get on how many FP they can 'bank'. So just cause someone wishes to play an FS character, does NOT make there an assumption that the GM has to put in a force using master for him to ever find..

Quote:
Is a teacher that actually only helps to learn more powers faster, worth a 3D to attrinbutes difference?


Well.. remember BTB
Quote:
Force skills (Control, sense and alter). Character Point cost: To improve a Force skill by one pip costs a number of Character Points equal to the current number before the "D." Double the Character Point cost
without a teacher. Training Time: Characters with a teacher must train one day for each Character Point spent; two days per Character Point without a teacher. Training time may be reduced by one day for each
The Star Wars Roleplaying Game The Force additional Character Point spent (minimum of one day).
Note: A character may be taught a new power each time a Force skill is improved one pip.
Force Powers: A character may be taught a new power each time a Force skill is improved one pip. The new power is chosen by the teacher
and must use the improved Force skill (for instance, a Jedi improving
control could not learn a power based solely on alter).


So A if you don't have a teacher, you won't automatically learn a new power just cause you advanced your CSA. Also costs for increasing them are doubled..
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
Naaman wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Mamatried wrote:

if we go beyond start, we come to the point where the non force sensitive and the force sensitive both have the instructor, ans can learn by cost of cp any skill they want, as long as they qualify.


BUT you are making the assumption that the player of the FS not only can find an instructor, but convince him to train them, AND has 30cp lying around to purchase that first D in the three force powers..

Mamatried wrote:
We look at the jedi.....he starts with 1D in each force skill, and thus have only a poweredge during creation, once the mission is over he is the weakest in the group, provided he is not the only one force sensitive.


That depends on what his force powers are.. Concentration, often one of the first taken for jedi pcs, is a game changer as it allows him to take his 3d skill in many stuff he has, and bump it to 7d.. for one action. Often making him higher than many other pcs are in that one skill, for that one action.


Meh... I'm not buying it.

Your experience is what it is, and I'm not discounting it. But your post assumes that the GM "didn't know" during character creation that the FS non-Jedi wanted to make such a character and later become a Jedi. In other words, the GM said, "you can be FS, but I'm may or may not give you a teacher, ever," and then the player still decided to go through with creating that character.

If the GM approved the character, then it's well within reason to assume that there is a teacher somewhere in the works.

All this talk of paladins is rather apt: you yourself have said that they have cool powers, but are bound by a strict code. Many players will shun the paladin in order to avoid that code. It's the same for Jedi: they deserve the "extra" power since they are restrained by a code of ethics/morals, which balances out their "uber" stats.



My point was actualy that the jedi didn't have the power they deserve.

they are 15D +3D force skills, vs 18D +0D Force skills.

When both the non jedi and the jedi are equal in force skill Dice. 2D to each or 3D each, then the jedi is still 3D to attributes underpowered.

Is a teacher that actually only helps to learn more powers faster, worth a 3D to attrinbutes difference?

So I would argue that the jedi is underpowered really and very much so


Yes. I agree with you and have presented a similar position here on the forums before.

Garhkal's standards are much more strict than mine when it comes to adhering to the rules. It's what suits him and his preferred style of play.

One of the things about D6--as elegant as it is--it is sloppy and inconsistent with regard to the actual execution of the rules within the system.

The editing of the published materials leaves much to be desired, and the consistency from one source to another suggests that the printed stats for things were not checked against other publications for the sake of continuity.

The best example I can think of is that the Rebel troops on Hoth were rocking 5D or more in some important combat skills, while a basic Rebel army trooper tends to have 4D in those same skills, and the SpecForce guys (the highly trained, "cream of the crop") have... wait for it... 3D in those same skills...

So, given that the authors were not all on the same page when compiling stats and rules and such, I think it is reasonable if a group or GM's play experience reveals that taking the Jedi's force dice out of his attribute dice is too crippling to be "balanced," and they just give those force dice in exchange for all the restrictions that come with being force sensitive.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:


I've often had players want to play a FS character, but have no desire to get forcepowers. ALL cause of the whole "cap" NFS characters get on how many FP they can 'bank'. So just cause someone wishes to play an FS character, does NOT make there an assumption that the GM has to put in a force using master for him to ever find..



That's not what I said, though. If the GM approved a non-Jedi force sensitive who wanted to become a Jedi, (like Luke or Anakin or Ahsoka or Rei) and then later decides not to provide a teacher, that's shady GMing, in my book. You may feel differently, of course.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
garhkal wrote:


I've often had players want to play a FS character, but have no desire to get forcepowers. ALL cause of the whole "cap" NFS characters get on how many FP they can 'bank'. So just cause someone wishes to play an FS character, does NOT make there an assumption that the GM has to put in a force using master for him to ever find..



That's not what I said, though. If the GM approved a non-Jedi force sensitive who wanted to become a Jedi, (like Luke or Anakin or Ahsoka or Rei) and then later decides not to provide a teacher, that's shady GMing, in my book. You may feel differently, of course.


Ahh, now i get what you was on about..
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
Naaman wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Mamatried wrote:

if we go beyond start, we come to the point where the non force sensitive and the force sensitive both have the instructor, ans can learn by cost of cp any skill they want, as long as they qualify.


BUT you are making the assumption that the player of the FS not only can find an instructor, but convince him to train them, AND has 30cp lying around to purchase that first D in the three force powers..

Mamatried wrote:
We look at the jedi.....he starts with 1D in each force skill, and thus have only a poweredge during creation, once the mission is over he is the weakest in the group, provided he is not the only one force sensitive.


That depends on what his force powers are.. Concentration, often one of the first taken for jedi pcs, is a game changer as it allows him to take his 3d skill in many stuff he has, and bump it to 7d.. for one action. Often making him higher than many other pcs are in that one skill, for that one action.


Meh... I'm not buying it.

Your experience is what it is, and I'm not discounting it. But your post assumes that the GM "didn't know" during character creation that the FS non-Jedi wanted to make such a character and later become a Jedi. In other words, the GM said, "you can be FS, but I'm may or may not give you a teacher, ever," and then the player still decided to go through with creating that character.

If the GM approved the character, then it's well within reason to assume that there is a teacher somewhere in the works.

All this talk of paladins is rather apt: you yourself have said that they have cool powers, but are bound by a strict code. Many players will shun the paladin in order to avoid that code. It's the same for Jedi: they deserve the "extra" power since they are restrained by a code of ethics/morals, which balances out their "uber" stats.



My point was actualy that the jedi didn't have the power they deserve.

they are 15D +3D force skills, vs 18D +0D Force skills.

When both the non jedi and the jedi are equal in force skill Dice. 2D to each or 3D each, then the jedi is still 3D to attributes underpowered.

Is a teacher that actually only helps to learn more powers faster, worth a 3D to attrinbutes difference?

So I would argue that the jedi is underpowered really and very much so


Yes. I agree with you and have presented a similar position here on the forums before.

Garhkal's standards are much more strict than mine when it comes to adhering to the rules. It's what suits him and his preferred style of play.

One of the things about D6--as elegant as it is--it is sloppy and inconsistent with regard to the actual execution of the rules within the system.

The editing of the published materials leaves much to be desired, and the consistency from one source to another suggests that the printed stats for things were not checked against other publications for the sake of continuity.

The best example I can think of is that the Rebel troops on Hoth were rocking 5D or more in some important combat skills, while a basic Rebel army trooper tends to have 4D in those same skills, and the SpecForce guys (the highly trained, "cream of the crop") have... wait for it... 3D in those same skills...

So, given that the authors were not all on the same page when compiling stats and rules and such, I think it is reasonable if a group or GM's play experience reveals that taking the Jedi's force dice out of his attribute dice is too crippling to be "balanced," and they just give those force dice in exchange for all the restrictions that come with being force sensitive.


It is what I was saying, because mechanically jedi are well, weaker than the others, then giving them as an example of power is a bad one. so this is why the jedi came up, someone mentioned them as to how to be powerful from day 1.
and as you say with their - 3D to attributes, then it seems like indeed the authors were doing their own thing.

That being said, this is about powergaming, and thus related, and no poer gaming does not exist.
smart vs dumb characters do exist, some systems have a little more "realism" in some areas.

the warrior that can not take a hit, or jit is a very dumb warrior, even if his intelligence is through the room, still dumb as f.

In sw d6, as far I have experienced so far, the game is actually extremely hard to unbalance, and even harder to break or to powergame.

In fact the good thing about this system is that there is always a chance even without force points and character points to boost you rolls, for the fresh of the creation table character to actually kill someone like Vader.
now mind you a very very very small and then some small chance, but it is still there.
That alone is awesome and shows a good thought through system.


Regardless how you min max, or even "tailor make" your character, at least in sw d6, the only real negative you face is what happens to your character when they must rely on "all" their dump stat(s).

As to systems in general, if you "weaken" your class/concept beyond the "empirical consesus on the normal for the class/concept" then regardless how good and fun rp that is, you are then in the wrong to complain about powerplaying, as the sole reason you are not given your chance to shine si that you can't shine if you tied due to your choices.

And roleplaying games is about winning. claiming otherwise is simply false, now a win at all cost and as quicly as possible is to me bad attitude, but less so than F the GM I'm playing to loose, and never to get the reward that propels the work of the gm forward.

I expect the gm to referee me sleeping, but I can't roll, I can win and we can't play to win.
I will never ever take the hooks given by the gm, thy mean I must a check, a roll, I can win the roll and this is play to win.

Play to win is trying to succeed, that is playing to win, and that is a major part of any role playing gmae, hence the game part of the name.

so I dare say with the terms generally used, and the generally agreed upon definition, then NO power gamers do not in any way exist
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