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Why Powergaming does not exist
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
garhkal wrote:


I've often had players want to play a FS character, but have no desire to get forcepowers. ALL cause of the whole "cap" NFS characters get on how many FP they can 'bank'. So just cause someone wishes to play an FS character, does NOT make there an assumption that the GM has to put in a force using master for him to ever find..



That's not what I said, though. If the GM approved a non-Jedi force sensitive who wanted to become a Jedi, (like Luke or Anakin or Ahsoka or Rei) and then later decides not to provide a teacher, that's shady GMing, in my book. You may feel differently, of course.



Worse than just "shady GMing"
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
And roleplaying games is about winning. claiming otherwise is simply false, now a win at all cost and as quicly as possible is to me bad attitude, but less so than F the GM I'm playing to loose, and never to get the reward that propels the work of the gm forward.

I expect the gm to referee me sleeping, but I can't roll, I can win and we can't play to win.
I will never ever take the hooks given by the gm, thy mean I must a check, a roll, I can win the roll and this is play to win.

Play to win is trying to succeed, that is playing to win, and that is a major part of any role playing gmae, hence the game part of the name.


I'm not sure that I agree. I don't see roleplaying as about winning, and I see nothing as manifestly false about that viewpoint as you suggest. Naturally I don't try to fail my skill checks. But I don't see a roleplaying game being driven by a need to win. I see it as a social activity where a group of players get to cooperatively explore a setting and plot. Sometimes you turn up ahead in the broad scope of the larger narrative, and sometimes the BBEG has you on the ropes. Naturally in a good story the heroes get their moment. But I don't think that if my character (and the rest of the party) comes away from an adventure licking his/their wounds then we've somehow missed out on what the game is all about.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what he is saying is that regardless of how the dice fall, a character isn't trying to "enjoy the story." The character may be the best in the world, but he won't win every time. Michael Jordan didn't win every game for the Bulls.

No matter how "powerful" a character is perceved to be, there are ways to defeat him, to include just bad rolls.

Continuing with the basketball analogy, do you all remember "Hack-a-Shaq"? Other teams found ways within the rules of the game to overcome/mitigate Shaq's advantages of size and skill.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes it worked for them, sometimes not. Would Shaq be a "power gamer"? Other teams "rules lawyers"?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
No matter how "powerful" a character is perceved to be, there are ways to defeat him, to include just bad rolls.


Sure. Show me a power gamer, and I'll show you a GM that allowed it.

The problem comes when the power gamer is trying to do his thing and the GM discourages that action.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Excellent point.

I would add that a GM can always offer to allow the character as long as it comes with quirks or trade-offs that promote good, fun play (such as moral dilemmas for the character to deal with).
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Excellent point.

I would add that a GM can always offer to allow the character as long as it comes with quirks or trade-offs that promote good, fun play (such as moral dilemmas for the character to deal with).


I love those.
Once had an unknown assassin hunting me, for unknown reasons, hired by an unknown party..........I was not very powerful though but it was a fun character, even more fun to "interrogate" the assassin eventually, and then repay the favor to his employer.

The unknown part usually makes a powergamer crap their pants, the rest of us rejoyces
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:40 am    Post subject: Re: Why Powergaming does not exist... Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
...so I dare say Powergaming do not exist.

Only powergamers say that powergaming doesn't exist! Shocked

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Power gaming does exist. I've seen it.
garhkal wrote:
Exactly. Or as i had in SW, someone wanting to play a force user, for all the kewl jedi powers, but NONE of the jedi baggage.
Dredwulf60 wrote:
When you Roleplay you play a role.

You do not necessarily play an 'ultimate' version of that role.

When a player contrives to make an 'ultimate' version of that role is a power gamer.
...
Some games are about 'winning'. If that's what that group wants, then they can go ahead and try to build optimal game-pieces. But that's not the standard of role playing, as observed by the general gaming community.
MrNexx wrote:
Powergaming exists...

The traditional power gamer is the person who makes mechanical choices instead of role-playing choices... they ignore skills like Value or Persuade because, though they may be useful, they seldom represent real, mechanical, power. But, if you create, say, a social combat system), and where skills like Persuade, Willpower, and the like have real value, then someone can powergame from another angle.
Naaman wrote:
What I don't like is players making choices that are not appropriate to the character's personality only to get more powerful, or only to ensure they don't "lose" something that makes them "powerful."
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
A roleplayer looks deep at what a character is, no matter his stats, and plays him to his best ability.

There's been a lot of great discussion in this this thread.

Dredwulf60 wrote:
It seems to me that mamatried has had some bad experiences with being called a power gamer...

I think the issue here is the provocative name of this thread! Smile

I think all of us have seen true Power Gamers at one point or another and can attest that it actually, does indeed exist!

The provocative name of this thread is problematic and dangerous to roleplaying. It's akin to saying that there is no such thing as famine in the real world. Denying the existence of powergaming does nothing to eliminate it.

Mamatried wrote:
The unknown part usually makes a powergamer crap their pants, the rest of us rejoyces

You exclude yourself from powergamers here, so powergamers do exist now?

Mamatried wrote:
And roleplaying games is about winning. claiming otherwise is simply false, now a win at all cost and as quicly as possible is to me bad attitude, but less so than F the GM I'm playing to loose, and never to get the reward that propels the work of the gm forward.

I expect the gm to referee me sleeping, but I can't roll, I can win and we can't play to win.
I will never ever take the hooks given by the gm, thy mean I must a check, a roll, I can win the roll and this is play to win.

Play to win is trying to succeed, that is playing to win, and that is a major part of any role playing gmae, hence the game part of the name.

R&E Player Handout wrote:
Winning. There are no winners or losers. Having fun is what counts.


cheshire wrote:
Naturally I don't try to fail my skill checks. But I don't see a roleplaying game being driven by a need to win. I see it as a social activity where a group of players get to cooperatively explore a setting and plot. Sometimes you turn up ahead in the broad scope of the larger narrative, and sometimes the BBEG has you on the ropes. Naturally in a good story the heroes get their moment. But I don't think that if my character (and the rest of the party) comes away from an adventure licking his/their wounds then we've somehow missed out on what the game is all about.

I agree.

Naaman wrote:
I think what he is saying is that regardless of how the dice fall, a character isn't trying to "enjoy the story." The character may be the best in the world, but he won't win every time...

No matter how "powerful" a character is perceved to be, there are ways to defeat him, to include just bad rolls.

I don't feel that saying there are always ways to defeat powerful characters is a good argument to condone powergaming. The player should play the character with whatever level of enjoyment of his life that is appropriate for that character in the situations he is in, but all the players and the GM should enjoy the story. That's every player's goal.

R&E p.72 wrote:
Roleplaying is cooperative. You're not trying to beat the players. You're all working together to tell a fun story. Sometimes the heroes win - sometimes they lose - but what matters is having fun.

I view roleplaying as a group effort to create a story that is entertaining for all. The "game" part comes in the form of the game system so it is not just the GM arbitrarily saying, "You hit for a wound, you miss, the attack on you misses, the attack on you hits and you're incapacitated, you know that, you don't know that, you lose 200 credits at the sabaac table," etc. It is NOT a game because anyone "wins." It is a game because it simulates the reality of the Star Wars universe towards the purpose of the game, enjoying the creation of an entertaining story through roleplaying.

Powergamers most certainly do exist and saying they don't exist is slap in the face to spirit of roleplaying. I can personally verify their existence because not only have I know them, but in junior high I was a D&D powergamer myself. In high school I got WEG Star Wars and grew out of being a powergamer. Maybe that's still ok for D&D, but it is not ok for Star Wars D6.

Powergamers tend to be min-maxers who can only have fun through the fictional successes of their own PC. Powergamers are selfish because they don't care about how much fun the other players or GM is having. Powegamers are the player-version of "evil GM". If the powergamer's goal is completely achieved, then all challenges were easily defeated. That's a real boring story. The heroes need to occasionally fail to make the successes meaningful. Han loudly stepping on that twig on the Forest Moon lead to a lot of exciting adventure. Think if he had just snuck up and defeated the scout troopers? And RotJ wouldn't have been nearly as good as it was if nothing bad happened in TESB. A good roleplayer can still enjoy the failures of his character and party. It's called drama. Entertaining stories have it.
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Mamatried wrote:
If I play a paladin then naturally it is because of the character abilities that follows, if not I would be a LG Fighter.


Then, in my book, you are a power gamer and not a roleplayer.

I mean no offense with this comment. It's just how I see it.

Role players choose based on the type of person that they want to play--not on the in-game bonuses.

What if we played old school, hard core AD&D, and your by-the-rule DM allowed you to roll stats and roll your starting hit pints.

And, you ended up with something like 15, 14, 13, 10, 10, 11.

And then, you rolled only 1 HP.

Would you take those stats and play them to their fullest?

Or would you hate the game, not play, or just complain about the character until he was dead and you got to roll up something new?

That's a good test for a roleplayer.



I can be a roleplayer at the same time as Powergamer. The one does not exclude the other
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:


Powergaming= character that can do all........is false.
character not allowed by RAW and cheated = powergamer.


.


Powergaming just means that I get the maximum allowed by the rules. Someone who does more than allow the rules is a scammer. A cheater is not a power gamer
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Whill
Quote:

Powergamers tend to be min-maxers who can only have fun through the fictional successes of their own PC. Powergamers are selfish because they don't care about how much fun the other players or GM is having. Powegamers are the player-version of "evil GM". If the powergamer's goal is completely achieved, then all challenges were easily defeated. That's a real boring story. The heroes need to occasionally fail to make the successes meaningful. Han loudly stepping on that twig on the Forest Moon lead to a lot of exciting adventure. Think if he had just snuck up and defeated the scout troopers? And RotJ wouldn't have been nearly as good as it was if nothing bad happened in TESB. A good roleplayer can still enjoy the failures of his character and party. It's called drama. Entertaining stories have it.



From my point of view, you have a very one-sided view and automatically condemn all Powergamer here.

Why should not both be possible? I have also experienced people in various groups who were very keen on the RPG but at the same time have exploited what the rules give.

As I said, one thing does not exclude the other
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denderan marajain wrote:
Whill wrote:
Powergamers tend to be min-maxers who can only have fun through the fictional successes of their own PC. Powergamers are selfish because they don't care about how much fun the other players or GM is having. Powegamers are the player-version of "evil GM". If the powergamer's goal is completely achieved, then all challenges were easily defeated. That's a real boring story... A good roleplayer can still enjoy the failures of his character and party. It's called drama. Entertaining stories have it.

From my point of view, you have a very one-sided view and automatically condemn all Powergamer here.

Why should not both be possible? I have also experienced people in various groups who were very keen on the RPG but at the same time have exploited what the rules give.

I did not even say that powergamers are not roleplayers. I indicated that powergamers are not good roleplayers. It is natural for any player to fully realize his starting character concept, and it is natural for any player to want his PC to succeed in general. These things alone are not powergaming.

I make no apologies for my view against powergamers as I define them. I have no tolerance for true powergaming. But if a player isn't selfish about his enjoyment of roleplaying then he is not a powergamer. If a player is truly a team player down for the cooperative effort of creating an enjoyable story for all, where the overall story being co-created by the whole group is more important than his PC's individual fictional successes, then I would not define them as a powergamer no matter how good the PC does what he does.

The most important thing I wanted to express was that it is dangerous to say that true powergamers do not exist. Powergaming does exist. I was a D&D powergamer when a was a kid. I've since played in games with middle-aged powergamers (but thankful that has been a rare experience with me). Describing something that exists as not existing is allowing it to exist unfettered.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

denderan marajain wrote:
Powergaming just means that I get the maximum allowed by the rules. Someone who does more than allow the rules is a scammer. A cheater is not a power gamer


Not quite.

There's nothing wrong with using the rules to their fullest.

A power gamer is one that is not happy if he ends up getting, by the rules, something that is not close to the maximum. This usually happens with random roll systems.

For example, in my Classic Traveller game one time, I had a player roll a character with STR 2, DEX 2, and END 2. All the physicle attributes were at a minimum in a system where 7 is human average and 15 is maximum.

A power gamer balks at this. It's too hard to play, he says. He's too easily killed, he says (in that game, your STR, DEX, and END make up your hitpoints--so this character has the bare minimum).

A roleplayer takes lemons and makes lemonade. He sees the challenge in playing a character like this, and he turns it into something cool and interesting.

Remember Corporal Upham (played by Jeremy Davies) in Saving Private Ryan? Slight, not a combat specialist, and wouldn't be in the Army if it wasn't a World War. That's this Traveller character. He's Captain America before the supersoldier serum.

A power game would turn his nose up at that. He can't kick @$$ with a character like that.

A roleplayer takes that character and makes it so memorable that you remember the character for years later. He's the Hobbit who ends up winning the war for the Realms.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
denderan marajain wrote:
Powergaming just means that I get the maximum allowed by the rules. Someone who does more than allow the rules is a scammer. A cheater is not a power gamer


Not quite.

There's nothing wrong with using the rules to their fullest.

A power gamer is one that is not happy if he ends up getting, by the rules, something that is not close to the maximum. This usually happens with random roll systems.

For example, in my Classic Traveller game one time, I had a player roll a character with STR 2, DEX 2, and END 2. All the physicle attributes were at a minimum in a system where 7 is human average and 15 is maximum.

A power gamer balks at this. It's too hard to play, he says. He's too easily killed, he says (in that game, your STR, DEX, and END make up your hitpoints--so this character has the bare minimum).

A roleplayer takes lemons and makes lemonade. He sees the challenge in playing a character like this, and he turns it into something cool and interesting.

Remember Corporal Upham (played by Jeremy Davies) in Saving Private Ryan? Slight, not a combat specialist, and wouldn't be in the Army if it wasn't a World War. That's this Traveller character. He's Captain America before the supersoldier serum.

A power game would turn his nose up at that. He can't kick @$$ with a character like that.

A roleplayer takes that character and makes it so memorable that you remember the character for years later. He's the Hobbit who ends up winning the war for the Realms.



Well said.

The Corp. Upham comparison says a lot.

He still however have enough (str dex con etc) physical attributes to pass his basic training.
So he would not be at any physical, and by his MOS, neither a very mental minimum, but rather all attribute.

I love the concept of the 6 int (d20 to compare) character that wants to be a
wizard, tries to be one, but can "never" by mechanics be one.
And thus I play a fighter, using my spellbook, yes I have a spell book, as my "club".
Being the warrior/fighter makes sense, being the same concept and wizard makes none, as you are no wizard, but you are a warrior, having to get by that way, average stats or not.

So the class in systems is actually often what makes a power less so, becuse he have sometimes made a choice that makes sense.

Also yes it is roleplay, but the "flawed" hero is just as repedative as the "super hero".

I can both read and write and run etc. Yes a flaw, even a severe one can make a good concept and make good rp, but not if it is there to "make sure you have a flaw, for the sake of the flaw"

And I often feel from the arguments presented on both sides that it boiled down to their character, wanting to be a wizard, but ( as their concept and a cool one actually) he simply can not, "ever" and then he keeps to the wizard class, making sure nothing counters his flaw, like playing a fighter/awrrior class so his attacks are better.
vs the also flawed warrior, who's flaw is being less a fighter than the cahmpions around, but becuse his class/Concept actually made sense he is accused of a powerplayer, hs choices made him better at ALL aspects compared to the wizard.

However had the wizard been the same concept, but a warror, not a wizard that he can't be, then he would not be that "bad" and thus the other less of a power player, or rather there would be less of a power gap.

now I agree with the rest though.

it is often for some hard to accept a very "hard" flaw, from their point of view.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

denderan marajain wrote:

Powergaming just means that I get the maximum allowed by the rules. Someone who does more than allow the rules is a scammer. A cheater is not a power gamer


You also have munchkins, those who bend rules to make powerful characters. They COULD be seen as cheaters, but often use as obscure a rule they can find, to do what they do.
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