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MC80 vs. ISD - how do you do enough damage
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:02 am    Post subject: MC80 vs. ISD - how do you do enough damage Reply with quote

I have read a lot in this forum about the rules regarding Combined Fire and their interpretation as well as many house rules and I do not know anymore which rule is the right one.

My question would be how would such a RAW confrontation look like?

Can an MC80 really win against an ISD and if so how?

Maybe someone can enlighten me here
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO a lot would depend on
A) which one gains initiative in the battle
B) do they have fighter and support ships, or is it a one on one battle
C) what tactics do they use (IE does the MC cap the T like the drawing in the rebel source book shows)..
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Argentsaber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:44 pm    Post subject: Re: MC80 vs. ISD - how do you do enough damage Reply with quote

denderan marajain wrote:
I have read a lot in this forum about the rules regarding Combined Fire and their interpretation as well as many house rules and I do not know anymore which rule is the right one.

My question would be how would such a RAW confrontation look like?

Can an MC80 really win against an ISD and if so how?

Maybe someone can enlighten me here

If you are talking about including command cruisers like Home One or Independence, They probably out class the ISD ship per ship, carrying many more fighters, and most likely being twice the size. (there is some debate on this point, but in general I fall into the idea that these guys are about double the length of the ISD).

In a one on one engagment, the MC-80a will have a slight edge in starfighters, but be undergunned. The MC-80b will be a close fight but only carries 48 fighters until the New Republic refit, so that makes it fair only if all the rebel fighters are top ships (no y-wings/headhunters/etc.) The winged ships like Liberty are a close match to the earlier versions of the MC-80b in most regards.

With that out of the way.. the Rebels will generally have several other advantages. First, The ISD is generally going to be the defender in most cases, so the MC-80 will have the option to strike from ambush, leave if the battle starts to look chancy, etc. Also, Rebel fighters almost all have hyperdrives, so the MC-80 can start a battle with all it's fighter assets deployed, unlikely with TIEs. Hyperdrive fighters also allow for much faster withdrawls, because all the rebel pilots can just meet the carrier elsewhere to get picked up.

Another thing to note is that in a D6 game, if you have a capital ship brawl like this going "on screen," the rebels presumably include the player characters. Every now and again this makes a big difference. Laughing

As far as what specific rule you use for battery fire/combined fire/etc., I suggest asking two of your players to do an experiment with you on a non-gamenight. Have each control one ship, and act as referee. Run the battle twice (the players swapping sides) for each rule set you are considering, and get feedback?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since we’re just using official rules here, the key is the optional damage rules listed in Rules of Engagement. This allows for the MonCals and their high crew skill rating to come into play to inflict better damage by aiming better to hit vulnerable spots on the ISD. High crew skill also plays a factor in that good skill rolls will more consistently hit at greater ranges (higher rolls beating the higher difficulties at Medium or Long range).
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Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Argentsaber
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Since we’re just using official rules here, the key is the optional damage rules listed in Rules of Engagement. This allows for the MonCals and their high crew skill rating to come into play to inflict better damage by aiming better to hit vulnerable spots on the ISD. High crew skill also plays a factor in that good skill rolls will more consistently hit at greater ranges (higher rolls beating the higher difficulties at Medium or Long range).

Even inside official rules there is a difference between combined fire and individual gunnery, no?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote?
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Kytross
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stay at max range so only lasers can be used, keep your shields in place and take advantage of the Mon Cal's shield advantage.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Since we’re just using official rules here, the key is the optional damage rules listed in Rules of Engagement. This allows for the MonCals and their high crew skill rating to come into play to inflict better damage by aiming better to hit vulnerable spots on the ISD. High crew skill also plays a factor in that good skill rolls will more consistently hit at greater ranges (higher rolls beating the higher difficulties at Medium or Long range).


True the Base book does give the MC crew slightly higher stats, but not by that much. UNLESS all the crew are mon-cal!

Astrogation, both are at 4d, but the Mon cal 'when watered' bonus kicks in for crews on their ships.
Gunnery is 4d+2 vs 5d (6d for mon cal crew), piloting is 5d+1 vs 5d+2 (+1d Mon cal bonus).. Shields are 4d+1 vs 5d....Sensors though the imps win out 4d to 3d+1..

The imps sensor ranges and bonuses are a lot better..

50 vs 40 passive, both 1d
100 vs 60 scan at 3d to 2d
200 vs 120 search at 4d vs 3d
and a focus of 6 vs 5 at a 4d+2 vs 4d bonus.

Maneuverability the MC wins out at 2d vs 1d.
ISD has 7d hull +3d shields, vs the MC's 6d hull +3d shields (and 6d back up).

For weapons comparison we have 60 turbo batteries vs 48 for the ISD, and the ISD's ones have 4d fire control vs 2d for the MC, and also have 1d better damage. Same ranges though. Split in a 20/20/20 format, vice 12/12/12/12. So IF the MC can get in the ISD's rear, it has uncontested firing. And unlike the ISD can fire BACk if it's fleeing...

Then we have 60 ion cannons vs 20, for the ISD winning here. Though the Rebels ones do have slightly better fire control (3d vs 2d+2).

And lastly the ISD has 10 tractor beams vs 6 for the MC..

So yes, while (with the Mon cal crew bonus for being wet), their Crew skill is higher both for gunnery and piloting, that bonus gets negated by the ISD's better fire control and having MORE turbo lasers.. Additionally it's hull is better able to resist the fire.

Argentsaber wrote:

Even inside official rules there is a difference between combined fire and individual gunnery, no?


Yes combined fire is all shot as one, so if the roller misses, ALL miss. INdividual fire is just that. So out of the 20 batteries in the front, an ISD might have say 12 hit, 8 miss (60% hit ratio). BUT since the MC has only 12 per arc, if it had the same ratio of hits to misses, only 7 of 12 would hit (rounded up to 60% hit ratio)...

Kytross wrote:
Stay at max range so only lasers can be used, keep your shields in place and take advantage of the Mon Cal's shield advantage.


Which can be negated by the ISD's having more guns with better fire control..
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all thanks for the many opinions and examples

As far as the combined action rules are concerned, they depend on the height of the command value, right?

If the captain of the MC80 has a command value of 8D then he can combine 8 turbo lasers. Correctly?

Ideally, the + 2D + 2 damage -> 6D + 2

On average, that would be 23 points.
The ISD rolls 7D + 3D = 10D
-> On average, that would be 35 points.

If I did not understand something wrong there, the MC80 can not be dangerous to the ISD?

By the way, does the bonus really only apply to one shot, meaning that it only gets rolled once?



If I interpret that correctly then an MC80 with no outliers in dice can never defeat an ISD
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Normally yes, one Is limited to combining as many folk as HE has in his Command skill. BUT that's also in a 'they are not used to you, work well together etc' format.. IF they are skilled enough and have been trained enough, one can go above that limit.

Also normally cap ships tier the command. The CO commands his gunnery officers (say 6), each who command their gunnery seargants (4) who then command each of their compliant gun batteries.
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the end you are using a House Rule?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what? The 'can go above their D in command when combining"??
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
For what? The 'can go above their D in command when combining"??

Exactly. There is no system under the RAW to allow for direct use of the Command skill to command the crew of an ISD or MC80; the numbers are just too large. Any system that did permit it would have to be a house rule.

Fortunately, there is another possibility; specifically, that capital ships in the RAW are exempt from the requirements of coordination and the Command skill. I offer the following quote, from the 2R&E Rulebook, page 246-247, under the stat template description for "Crew":
    Each ship has one prime person responsible for keeping control, running sensors, calculating hyperspace jumps and the like. On smaller ships, one person may be responsible for all of these duties, while on larger ships, one person may be in charge of each of these functions. While there might be hundreds of support crew manning the machinery, whether the action succeeds comes down to one character's skill roll — hence the crew skill listing.
The clear inference here is that there is no need under the RAW to roll Command to coordinate the crew, and furthermore, that there is no need to apply MAPs when a capital ship is both firing its weapons, maneuvering and calculating a hyperspace jump. There might be an argument for applying MAPs if the gunnery officer is directing fire at multiple targets simultaneously, but in a straight one-on-one capital ship duel, there will only be one target at a time, and it will only be in one fire arc at a time.

From there, it's a pretty easy step to just apply coordination bonus dice based on how many cannon are firing at the target, and what pattern they happen to be firing in (i.e. maximizing accuracy or potential for damage).
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could it be possible that the command is given to some, then they pass it on using their command etc.

Captain, uses his command to "assist" with combat.
He commands his max number of officers.
Each officer either further commands officers, and then
the last line of officers would be the station ones, like the gunnery officers, now they use command on their crew.

This way the captain of the star destroyer can actually use command and affect all on board
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Possibly by a house rule, but not per the RAW.
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