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MC80 vs. ISD - how do you do enough damage
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
For what? The 'can go above their D in command when combining"??



Yes, that is exactly what I mean
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
For what? The 'can go above their D in command when combining"??

Exactly. There is no system under the RAW to allow for direct use of the Command skill to command the crew of an ISD or MC80; the numbers are just too large. Any system that did permit it would have to be a house rule.

Fortunately, there is another possibility; specifically, that capital ships in the RAW are exempt from the requirements of coordination and the Command skill. I offer the following quote, from the 2R&E Rulebook, page 246-247, under the stat template description for "Crew":
    Each ship has one prime person responsible for keeping control, running sensors, calculating hyperspace jumps and the like. On smaller ships, one person may be responsible for all of these duties, while on larger ships, one person may be in charge of each of these functions. While there might be hundreds of support crew manning the machinery, whether the action succeeds comes down to one character's skill roll — hence the crew skill listing.
The clear inference here is that there is no need under the RAW to roll Command to coordinate the crew, and furthermore, that there is no need to apply MAPs when a capital ship is both firing its weapons, maneuvering and calculating a hyperspace jump. There might be an argument for applying MAPs if the gunnery officer is directing fire at multiple targets simultaneously, but in a straight one-on-one capital ship duel, there will only be one target at a time, and it will only be in one fire arc at a time.

From there, it's a pretty easy step to just apply coordination bonus dice based on how many cannon are firing at the target, and what pattern they happen to be firing in (i.e. maximizing accuracy or potential for damage).



Just so I understand that very well ... although you think that RAW can not be portrayed BUT actually it does not matter, because in a classic fight everybody is firing on the same target anyway?

So, if you're facing an MC80 and an ISD and the ISD can fire 20 turbo lasers and the MC80 12 turbo laser on the current side, is there no command skill or command roll to generate 6D + 2 or 4D bonuses?


I always thought the bonus only comes into play when it is really completely coordinated. If everyone just shoots, I have no coordination, at least from my point of view.

Or did I misunderstand you there?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the RAW is hugely flawed with regards to the Command skill and any combat coordination above the squad level, but since we are discussing this in the Official Rules section, any discussion here must center on what is in the Official Rules. Any discussion of alternatives should be moved over to an appropriate topic in the House Rules section.

Taking into account both the Coordination rules and the quote I posted from above, there is no clear way for a ship's captain to apply his Command skill roll to his gunnery officer's skill roll. However, the gunnery officer is also in personal control of all the weapons in every fire arc (with an undetermined number of assistants and gun crew serving under him), so it's an easy step to say that the gunnery officer can simply order all of his cannon to fire at a single target, receiving the resulting coordination bonus from the massed fire.
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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I think the RAW is hugely flawed with regards to the Command skill and any combat coordination above the squad level, but since we are discussing this in the Official Rules section, any discussion here must center on what is in the Official Rules. Any discussion of alternatives should be moved over to an appropriate topic in the House Rules section.

Taking into account both the Coordination rules and the quote I posted from above, there is no clear way for a ship's captain to apply his Command skill roll to his gunnery officer's skill roll. However, the gunnery officer is also in personal control of all the weapons in every fire arc (with an undetermined number of assistants and gun crew serving under him), so it's an easy step to say that the gunnery officer can simply order all of his cannon to fire at a single target, receiving the resulting coordination bonus from the massed fire.


I agree with you. RAI will probably be the way you just described it

Strictly RAW, however, it is probably not possible for an MC80 to be dangerous to an ISD and vice versa
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it's not probable, but it is still possible. The MC80's rolls would have to be much better than average to have a chance. Of course, depending on which version of the Rules of Engagement Skill-to-Damage rule you use, the Mon Cal's skill level could make a big difference, and the MC80's shields are much better suited to letting the ship take a beating while still gambling on a high Damage roll.

Also noteworthy is that, while the 2E and 2R&E versions of the rules give MC80's an equal number of cannon in all four fire arcs, the 1E Rebel Alliance Sourcebook strongly indicates that the cannon on the MC80 are concentrated more on the left and right fire arcs, as opposed to being equally distributed (see page 152 for the Capital Ship Fire Arcs illustration). While the 2E ISD matches this image (cannon cover the front, left and right arcs, with nothing aft), the MC80 does not.

Going off that image, an MC80 would more likely have a distribution of 8 Front, 20 Left, 20 Right, 0 Rear (or 12 Front, 18 Left, 18 Right, 0 Rear). This is borderline house rule, but since it is based off of a previous version of the official rules, it's arguably passable.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

denderan marajain wrote:
garhkal wrote:
For what? The 'can go above their D in command when combining"??



Yes, that is exactly what I mean


Page 83 of the R&E book.
Quote:
If a task is very easy and the characters are highly
skilled or experienced, you may even allow a leader to
combine actions for more characters than he has command
skill dice

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denderan marajain
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PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2018 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
ell, it's not probable, but it is still possible. The MC80's rolls would have to be much better than average to have a chance. Of course, depending on which version of the Rules of Engagement Skill-to-Damage rule you use, the Mon Cal's skill level could make a big difference, and the MC80's shields are much better suited to letting the ship take a beating while still gambling on a high Damage roll.



Sure, if I have statistical slip up, it can of course happen but I go for a consideration just from a normal case and not by exception
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S-Foil
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a stand-up fight the only real way for an MC80 to hold its own against an ISD is to use its better maneuverability and crew skill to get into and stay in the ISD's rear firing arc. If the MC80 also keeps between 25 and 35 units from the ISD it's Turbolasers are at Medium range while the ISD's Ion Canons (the ISD's only rear arc guns) are at Long range.

The range penalties and crew skill differences would give the MC80 and advantage in the particular scenario. This assumes neither side is able to make significant headway with their fighter compliment. If the MC80's fighters through skill differences and shields can get a K/D ratio of 2:1 or better the. They can hary the ISD and even potentially make effective attack runs.

In the "real world" I would think (and have played such) that the Rebels would always avoid a stand up fight against an ISD. If they are going to go after one they would use pack tactics and send multiple MC80s against one ISD (trying to keep in its rear firing arc or just doubling up in one of the other arcs). A pair of MC80s each with a squadron of B-Wings could do a pretty good job against an ISD as long as long as they don't get cocky.

Additionally the MC80s would always travel with a picket screen of smaller capital ships to make sure the ISD's fighters can't land hits on the MC80s.

Save for Thrawn's fleet in the Thrawn sourcebooks or the fleet actions in the Rebels cartoons I can't think of many places we have seen ISDs travel with escorts. It's sort of an Imperial hubris thing that ISDs are so bad-@$$ that they don't need escorts.
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Zarn
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, there's the "defeat in detail" bit. The Empire is defending, the Rebels (and later, the Alliance) is attacking.

Which means that the Empire is nickel-and-diming their forces, trying to cover all bases as well as they can, while the Rebels can concentrate their forces to hit specific targets. Yes, the Rebels have lighter weight units (except, arguably, for their usual starfighters), and their logistical depth is nowhere near the Empire's. But, they can pick and choose where they hit, theoretically (in practice, you tend to get certain unavoidable fights because of the resources you're protecting, or the political coin you need to pay, or whatever).

Good analysis on the fire arcs, though; I've read both stat descriptions, but I hadn't really grokked what they meant until you laid it out as succinctly as you did, S-Foil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_in_detail
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we added in fighters, the ISD with 6 squadrons even with no shields, is comparible to the 3 shielded squadrons an MC has.
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Leona Makk
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
IMO a lot would depend on
A) which one gains initiative in the battle


This may not be the correct place for this question, but is everyone resolving Starship and Capital ship compact Initiative by rolling Perception?

I have been struggling with it. Should the commanding Admirals roll for the fleets? Should the Pilot of each ship roll?
Should the "Red Leader" or "Gold Leader" roll for their squadrons.
Should Perception be rolled at all or would you use a Piloting skill (like Star Warriors) or even Tactics or Comm/Scan?
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The individual combat system doesn't really apply that well to capital ship combat, especially on the fleet level. The 2R&E Rulebook makes the point that such combat should be peripheral to the actions of the characters. Personally, I'd like to see (and have worked on) some rules for characters to command capital ships in combat. In the event a workable rule system exists, I would suggest using Tactics for initiative.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leona Makk wrote:
garhkal wrote:
IMO a lot would depend on
A) which one gains initiative in the battle


This may not be the correct place for this question, but is everyone resolving Starship and Capital ship compact Initiative by rolling Perception?

I have been struggling with it. Should the commanding Admirals roll for the fleets? Should the Pilot of each ship roll?
Should the "Red Leader" or "Gold Leader" roll for their squadrons.
Should Perception be rolled at all or would you use a Piloting skill (like Star Warriors) or even Tactics or Comm/Scan?


Ship admiral or co rolls for cap vs cap.
When it gets down to fighter vs freighter (or freighter vs freighter) the pilot of a freighter rolls for his ship, while i run it where squadron leaders roll for their squadrons..
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