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Hyperspace Routes are Freeways
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:35 pm    Post subject: Hyperspace Routes are Freeways Reply with quote

I just learned something new.

For several years, friends have encouraged me to watch Clone Wars (and Rebels). Even though I'm a comics reader, the cartoons really aren't my thing. But, hey, what the heck.

So, I started with the Clone Wars movie, and I' just starting the second episode of the series. It's OK. I'm not sure how long I'll stick with it. As I said, it's not really my thing.

But, I'll watch some episodes for now.



Why am I posting?

I learned, though this recent top of the toe into the Clone Wars series, something new about Hyperspace Routes.

I understand that the Clone Wars series is canon.

In the movie (I think--it may have been the first episode of the series), the Separatists have cut off the Jedi Knights and the Clone Army from the outer regions by taking control of the hyperspace lanes.



Now, I knew that there were major hyperspace lanes, but I didn't realize that going through hyperspace meant--like looking at a road map--taking certain space routes to get to your destination. I thought doing that would get you to your destination quicker, but I didn't realize how imperative it is to keep these space lanes open.

They're freeways. Close them down, and you can control traffic in the galaxy.

Which...all of a sudden, the dispute over taxation of the hyperspace routes in Episode I starts to make more sense.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another Clone Wars revelation. Hyperspace jumps have a minimum distance, based on the size of the ship.

"With a ship that size it will be difficult to chart a course that is less than ten parsecs."

Wow. What does this say about micro-jumps in-system? That can't be done with certain sized ships!
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watching Clone Wars still. It looks like the communication in hyperspace idea has been around a long time--it wasn't a new idea presented in Rogue One.

It happens in the Clone Wars series.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that's still 'disney' new canon... Not old Lucas canon.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
But that's still 'disney' new canon... Not old Lucas canon.


True. I was just shocked that the idea wasn't new with Rogue One.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone who spends an inordinate amount of time dealing with freeways, I can say with some authority that it is, at best, an imperfect metaphor. There are many ways in which they differ, as well. Most obviously, it is impossible (or at least a very, very bad idea) to come to a dead stop in the middle of a freeway, then turn around and head the other direction.

It does make sense (also based on my experience) that larger vehicles might require more room to make a jump, what with mass and momentum affecting acceleration and deceleration. In the case of micro jumps, as seen in the HttE trilogy, this is where a backup drive might be useful, as the much lower relative speed will shorten the accel/decel distances.

As for comms, strictly speaking, the only place I can recall it being explicitly stated as impossible was the Black Fleet Trilogy, so it isn’t outside the realm of possibility. However, just because something is possible does not mean it should be common. My thinking is that it should be the province of full-up holo-comm systems, and limited to the Empire as of the Battle of Yavin. The Alliance would, in turn, make use of a less effective (but also less expensive and harder to trace) method of sending precordered text or audio messages via burst transmissions.

One comm restriction that does still stand from HttE is that deflector shields disrupt both hyper and sub space comms...
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
But that's still 'disney' new canon... Not old Lucas canon.


Wait...isn't Clone Wars a Lucas thing?
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
As someone who spends an inordinate amount of time dealing with freeways, I can say with some authority that it is, at best, an imperfect metaphor. There are many ways in which they differ, as well. Most obviously, it is impossible (or at least a very, very bad idea) to come to a dead stop in the middle of a freeway, then turn around and head the other direction.


Well, it is a metaphor, and all metaphors fall apart is pushed to far. But, one can take a turn around on an interstate, which is, basically, coming to a dead stop and then going the opposite direction.





Quote:
In the case of micro jumps, as seen in the HttE trilogy, this is where a backup drive might be useful, as the much lower relative speed will shorten the accel/decel distances.


Are micro jumps even possible anymore, with the new canon? HttE is Legends, and Clone Wars is Canon. See my post above where, in the CW, there are ship size restrictions to making short jumps--with distances like ten parsecs being the minimum jump range.





Quote:
As for comms, strictly speaking, the only place I can recall it being explicitly stated as impossible was the Black Fleet Trilogy, so it isn’t outside the realm of possibility. However, just because something is possible does not mean it should be common. My thinking is that it should be the province of full-up holo-comm systems, and limited to the Empire as of the Battle of Yavin. The Alliance would, in turn, make use of a less effective (but also less expensive and harder to trace) method of sending precordered text or audio messages via burst transmissions.


The hyperspace communication I just saw in CW happened with the Holo comm, to Senator Bail Organa's ship, the Tantive IV, while in hyperspace.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Well, it is a metaphor, and all metaphors fall apart is pushed to far. But, one can take a turn around on an interstate, which is, basically, coming to a dead stop and then going the opposite direction.

The problem is that, depending on the interstate, there can be quite a few miles before the next turn around.

Quote:
Are micro jumps even possible anymore, with the new canon? HttE is Legends, and Clone Wars is Canon. See my post above where, in the CW, there are ship size restrictions to making short jumps--with distances like ten parsecs being the minimum jump range.

I'm disinclined to throw out a piece of the EU just because some writer for a kids' comic series decided to throw in a plot point without either knowing or caring what precedents he was trampling on. If there is no way to avoid incorporating said plot point without changing the EU, I may reconsider, but even then, whatever changes must be made to the EU will be as minimal as possible. In this case, still permitting micro jumps if the ship's backup hyperdrive is used incorporates both ideas without requiring excessive change.

Quote:
The hyperspace communication I just saw in CW happened with the Holo comm, to Senator Bail Organa's ship, the Tantive IV, while in hyperspace.

It is not outside the realm of possibility that an Imperial Senator would have a Holo Net system built into his personal transport. We have also, in the past, discussed various sectors of the galaxy having local holo-net-in-miniature systems that permit real time holographic communication within a sector or between neighboring sectors.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
We have also, in the past, discussed various sectors of the galaxy having local holo-net-in-miniature systems that permit real time holographic communication within a sector or between neighboring sectors.


That's actually an interesting idea. In RO, the ship was in deep Imperial territory. What if they were pigging backing the signal off the wide-spread Imperial network in that sector?

Maybe in other sectors, hyperspace communication like what we saw in RO is not possible because there is no network to use.

Space is big. There could be different things possible in different regions of it.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
We have also, in the past, discussed various sectors of the galaxy having local holo-net-in-miniature systems that permit real time holographic communication within a sector or between neighboring sectors.


That's actually an interesting idea. In RO, the ship was in deep Imperial territory. What if they were pigging backing the signal off the wide-spread Imperial network in that sector?

Maybe in other sectors, hyperspace communication like what we saw in RO is not possible because there is no network to use.

Space is big. There could be different things possible in different regions of it.



Hyperspace communications....hmmm I think it is limited from way point to waypoint and then relayed between them.
At least for that era, now development seemed to go fast in the same era so I would say what we see of that holocom communication through space or even hyperspace is canon but in my opinion part of research onging.

I would also allow with the right communitions equipment and relays to have little or no delay.

I look at it as "internet, star wars version" and where use the earth as our web area, they ahve it larger, t a galactic level
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's where we did most of our discussing.
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I read, the more I see that Hyperspace travel just doesn't happen without a road--a hyperspace route.

According to TLJ Visual Dictionary, people have been trapped in regions of space where hyperspace routes don't exist. This is why the Unknown Regions remain unknown. There's no traffic going into and out of that region of space. It is effectively cut off from the explored galaxy.

Evidently, there was an ancient race that mapped out the original hyperspace routes.



In the game, I thought that, if you didn't have a route, then you could blaze on yourself--you'd just have to use a high difficulty number.

Looking at the game now, I see that I was wrong about that. A "never traveled route" has a difficulty of 30.

That's still a route. One that is just not traveled. An old, duty back road, so to speak.



Galactic Atlas

Which brings us to the Galactic Atlas, which is mentioned in the novelization for ANH.

My supposition is: The Atlas is constantly being updated as ships make port. The ships Nav Logs from its just completed trip are downloaded into the local version of the Galactic Atlas at the starport. In return, the ship is provided with the latest version of the Galactic Atlas to update its Nav records.

In this way, all spacefarers keep updating the routes, via the GA, to ensure others who use the routes will have a safe trip.



Secret Worlds

If you've got a world that doesn't have a route going to it (or, not a well known route), the world may be known--but no one knows how to get there.

The trouble is, worlds where there is no known route are very hard to come by--they're extremely rare.



Spaghetti Routes

If you took a handful of limp, twisty spaghetti and toss it on a plate, each strand of pasta would represent a hyperspace route. The route allows switching to other routes wherever the strands touch.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
According to TLJ Visual Dictionary, people have been trapped in regions of space where hyperspace routes don't exist. This is why the Unknown Regions remain unknown. There's no traffic going into and out of that region of space. It is effectively cut off from the explored galaxy.

Evidently, there was an ancient race that mapped out the original hyperspace routes.

I find the old EU's explanation more plausible, that gravitic anomalies in certain areas kept scouts from trailblazing new routes into those areas, thus keeping them cut off from the rest of the galaxy.

IIRC, scouts would survey new routes by making blind mini-jumps, no more than a few lightyears in length, which would allow them to build a route a little bit at a time (or hit a dead end and have to backtrack and try a different approach). Hitting gravitic anomalies would engage the ship's hyperdrive safety cut-out and force the ship back into realspace, and prevent the ship from continuing any further. To make matters worse, the gravitic anomalies would shift relatively quickly, so even if a scout found a good route, it would degrade to uselessness in a matter of weeks.


Quote:
Galactic Atlas

Which brings us to the Galactic Atlas, which is mentioned in the novelization for ANH.

My supposition is: The Atlas is constantly being updated as ships make port. The ships Nav Logs from its just completed trip are downloaded into the local version of the Galactic Atlas at the starport. In return, the ship is provided with the latest version of the Galactic Atlas to update its Nav records.

In this way, all spacefarers keep updating the routes, via the GA, to ensure others who use the routes will have a safe trip.

That has been my supposition for some time, as well. The GA is updated and maintained by the BoSS (since Astrogation support would fall under the "services" portion of the BoSS).

Quote:
Secret Worlds

If you've got a world that doesn't have a route going to it (or, not a well known route), the world may be known--but no one knows how to get there.

The trouble is, worlds where there is no known route are very hard to come by--they're extremely rare.

The simplest way to keep a world (and the route to it) a secret is simple; don't tell anyone about it. So long as the route doesn't make it into the Galactic Atlas, it can never enter general usage.

And there is also more than one Galactic Atlas; many organizations will maintain their own, separate navigation databases in addition to the Galactic Atlas. The Alliance, for example, will have many safe worlds and hidden bases to which it must have access, but doesn't want anyone else to know about. The Empire will also have secret prison facilities, weapons laboratories, etc. Criminal organizations may maintain secret files for smuggling routes that are off the beaten path.

Regional powers may also have secret hyperspace routes; House Reena (Lords of the Expanse) has one such route that they keep secret (although Black Sun found out about it and keeps the secret in trade for using it every now and then for smuggling goods in and out of the sector).
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The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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