The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Hyperspace Change of Course
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules -> Hyperspace Change of Course Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
It was jumping, along with all the others. Vader's ship caught it at the right moment during the process of the jump.

Indeed, but whatever point it was in the process, it was BEFORE it had begun to physically accelerate. The impact against the Devastator's hull occurred at sublight velocities, likely because the ship's hyperdrive cut-out engaged due to the mass of the Devastator appearing right in its path.

You're grasping at straws, and should probably quit while you're behind.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Also note that this is a Timothy Zahn thing. It was brought up in his new SW book called, "Thrawn."

It predates Zahn. The earliest mention I can recall is in the X-Wing novels (can't remember exactly which one, though). Anyway, it's been around for a long time.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14021
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
It still begs the question of how the ship could cut another ship in half by accelerating through its physical space.

If safety protocols could so easily be overridden, then its too easy for the rebels or the empire to dust build droid ships that launch themselves into hyperspace as a "ram" attack. Infact, if the rebels havent figured this out by Ep. 9, then they really are hopeless. Very Happy


Maybe that's WHY it took Holdo so long, before she could actually DO her maneuver. Cause she had to spend so much time doing the over-rides of the safety protocols..
That's the only reason i can think of, for why she took so long before ramming the imps, which is what let them destroy so many of the escape vehicles they were on..
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Naaman wrote:
It still begs the question of how the ship could cut another ship in half by accelerating through its physical space.


Lucas (and the WEG game) state that hyperspace is contemporaneous with normal space. That's part of it. Both exist during the same time frame--which is an easy way of saying that there's no time dilation.

I don't have an answer yet. But, I do like how Disney has made hyperspace interesting again. I feel like I did when I first watched ANH. I didn't understand, completely, how hyperspace worked. I had a thirst to know.

That thirst is back. Do, Kudos, Disney.

The answer is that it was not a physical collision but a mass shadow intersection. While the physics of it aren't clear (no less so than the physics of hyperspace itself), ships in hyperspace leave a residual mass effect in realspace as they move through it. Conversely, objects in realspace have a mass shadow in hyperspace, with the results of a collision on graphic display in TLJ. The explosion of the Raddus' impact on the Supremacy was completely different than any other explosion or collision observed in any of the films, because all of those collisions were actual, physical explosions and collisions, whereas the Raddus/Supremacy was the result of mass shadows catastrophically intersecting at several hundred times the speed of light.

Quote:
Quote:
If safety protocols could so easily be overridden, then its too easy for the rebels or the empire to dust build droid ships that launch themselves into hyperspace as a "ram" attack. Infact, if the rebels havent figured this out by Ep. 9, then they really are hopeless. Very Happy


True. You'd figure that the Rebels would make a ship designed for exactly that purpose to take out the DS II (probably didn't have enough time with the DS I).

Everyone says this without taking into account all the ways that such an event could be so difficult as to be impossible. Here's just a few:
    -The target must be extremely large, due to the difficulty of plotting such a pinpoint Astrogation course on anything smaller than Death Star-Scale (Note that, even at such close range, with the Supremacy close enough to be accurately scanned by the Raddus' sensors, it still hit off-center).

    -The actual effect of a mass shadow collision requires a very large mass to have an appreciable effect against a target large enough to be hit by such an attack.

    -The ships large enough to be used (generally, high end capital ships) are extremely rare, expensive and too valuable to be thrown away in a one-off attack, save in the most extreme circumstances (such as, if they are about to run out of fuel and be destroyed anyway).

    -Very high Difficulty numbers preclude anyone - save hero characters with well-above-average Astrogation skill levels who spend Force Points on the roll - from rolling high enough to successfully pull it off.

Possible does not mean probable. Namaan, just because its possible to shoot down an enemy aircraft with a single round from an M16 (the classic "golden BB"), does that make it a viable tactic to use for air defense?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Naaman
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3191

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I dont interpret it that way. Just plot a hyperspace course through the path that the ISD is sitting in. Doesnt matter wher where to. Just anglethe ship in thedirection of the target and jump to hyperspace. Simply build a hyperdrive/nav software that eschews the safety protocols.

Its no more complex than making a kamikaze attack... just puch the hypersrive at the right distance/timing from the target.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Make up your mind. Either a ship needs room to accelerate from normal sublight velocities up to lightspeed in order to transition to hyperspace or it doesn't.


It does, like the movies show. I just don't see how it would affect gameplay. No required SUs (SUs are an abstract unit of measurement, so they couldn't be used to measure a distance anyway).

Ships jump out in space. Just make sure that there's nothing in front of you, and jump.

Plus, ships must orient themselves for the correct direction in space when entering.



Quote:
No kidding. Not only do I subscribe to it, so does the RAW, and the EU, and it makes more sense than your supposition.


Nope, RAW doesn't subscribe to the pseudomotion idea. That only just appeared in the Zahn novel, Thrawn.

If you think so, then show me where in the rules it says that.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Also note that this is a Timothy Zahn thing. It was brought up in his new SW book called, "Thrawn."

It predates Zahn. The earliest mention I can recall is in the X-Wing novels (can't remember exactly which one, though). Anyway, it's been around for a long time.


You'd think Wookieepedia would have a reference to the X-Wing reference. I don't see one.

I'm reading the first X-Wing novel now (slowly), so if I run across it, I'll post it here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The answer is that it was not a physical collision but a mass shadow intersection.


You've actually said something that I agree with! Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Make up your mind. Either a ship needs room to accelerate from normal sublight velocities up to lightspeed in order to transition to hyperspace or it doesn't.


It does, like the movies show. I just don't see how it would affect gameplay. No required SUs (SUs are an abstract unit of measurement, so they couldn't be used to measure a distance anyway).

Ships jump out in space. Just make sure that there's nothing in front of you, and jump.

Plus, ships must orient themselves for the correct direction in space when entering.



Quote:
No kidding. Not only do I subscribe to it, so does the RAW, and the EU, and it makes more sense than your supposition.


Nope, RAW doesn't subscribe to the pseudomotion idea. That only just appeared in the Zahn novel, Thrawn.

If you think so, then show me where in the rules it says that.

I don’t need to. All you have is a throwaway line from a 1E sourcebook that was deliberately removed in the 2E version and a bunch of video clips that don’t show what you say they show. I’m not wasting my time proving a negative.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb
Commodore
Commodore


Joined: 07 Apr 2017
Posts: 1448

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Make up your mind. Either a ship needs room to accelerate from normal sublight velocities up to lightspeed in order to transition to hyperspace or it doesn't.


It does, like the movies show. I just don't see how it would affect gameplay. No required SUs (SUs are an abstract unit of measurement, so they couldn't be used to measure a distance anyway).

Ships jump out in space. Just make sure that there's nothing in front of you, and jump.

Plus, ships must orient themselves for the correct direction in space when entering.



Quote:
No kidding. Not only do I subscribe to it, so does the RAW, and the EU, and it makes more sense than your supposition.


Nope, RAW doesn't subscribe to the pseudomotion idea. That only just appeared in the Zahn novel, Thrawn.

If you think so, then show me where in the rules it says that.

I don’t need to. All you have is a throwaway line from a 1E sourcebook that was deliberately removed in the 2E version and a bunch of video clips that don’t show what you say they show. I’m not wasting my time proving a negative.


LOL. Because you can't prove it. Your stance is as weak as you say mine is. Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah, the rhetorical equivalent of “I know you are but what am I?”

Watch closely, class, this is what’s called “grasping at straws.”
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Zarn
Force Spirit


Joined: 17 Jun 2014
Posts: 698

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason why the only reference was to "Thrawn", was because that is new (Disney) canon. The Legends (EU) tab shows the following:

"Pseudomotion, the term referred to the seeming dramatic acceleration of a starship upon entering hyperspace. The equivalent phenomenon was observed upon re-entering realspace in the form of massive apparent deceleration. It is not understood if this is an illusion, as relativistic travel faster than the speed of light is impossible, or an effect of the dimensional transition from Hyperspace to Realspace."

I do agree it was Zahn who came up with the term and the description; the references are Zahn books. Possibly the best EU books there is, but your FTL mileage may vary.

It does jive pretty closely to what Whill pointed out, though, and it seems to follow what I've been arguing - that Hyperspace is dimensional travel, not realspace FTL.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naaman
Vice Admiral
Vice Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 3191

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Rolling Eyes


You mock. But this is fundamentally supported by canon, FWIW.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dredwulf60
Line Captain
Line Captain


Joined: 07 Jan 2016
Posts: 910

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:

Possible does not mean probable. Namaan, just because its possible to shoot down an enemy aircraft with a single round from an M16 (the classic "golden BB"), does that make it a viable tactic to use for air defense?


I tend to agree here.

To me it makes sense that we've never really seen (or heard of ) hyperspace ram kamikaze attacks because for *some* reason they are notoriously difficult to pull off and that only a 'hero' like Holdo's level of skill/ heroic CP expenditure would be able to reasonably attempt it.

Or some of the other reasons CRMcNeill offered up.

On the other hand, it could be just too bizarre to do.

How many times in history has someone crashed a naval destroyer into an aircraft carrier at flanking speed? I imagine it would do some damage, but I don't imagine any modern militaries are building/ converting ships with that purpose in mind.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 7, 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Page 8 of 11

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0