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Whill Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)
Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 10286 Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy
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Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | It wasn't an optical illusion when that ship started to go into hyperspace but rammed into Vader's Star Destroyer instead (Rogue One)... Then Vader's ship appears, blocking the one that was accelerating to enter hyperspace. |
CRMcNeill wrote: | It was just moving at normal sunlight velocities, the same normal sublight velocities evidenced by every ship prior to jumping to hyperspace in all the films so far. The RAW makes it clear that ships do not stop or turn on a dime; all that happened here is that the Devastator came out of hyperspace too close to the transport for it to decelerate or alter course to avoid a collision. |
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | The ships, as shown in the movies, accelerate on a velocity that takes them to lightspeed/entry into hyperspace.
I'm not sure where the disconnect here is. |
I'm not sure where the disconnect here is either.
https://youtu.be/sCVWm20fU0A?t=462
Go to the 7:45 mark in this video. Before Vader's destroyer appears, several ships jumped to hyperspace. Then it appears, but none of the ships are "accelerating to enter hyperspace". They are going normal sublight speeds and most turn away before crashing into it.
CRMcNeill wrote: | you are trying to insist there is acceleration to light speed when all that’s actually there is sublight movement, of ships coming to a new heading at sublight to make the jump to hyperspace. |
Right.
Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | What do you think is happening when a ship decides to go into light speed, and then the below is seen on the screen?
@0:57
Clicky, Clicky. |
We all know what is happening there. The Rebel ship in Rogue One was not yet doing that when it crashed into Vader's ship. The lights on its engines get brighter, but there is no actually acceleration whatsoever. What happened was a normal sublight collision. _________________ *
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16163 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 1:16 am Post subject: |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | What do you think is happening when a ship decides to go into light speed, and then the below is seen on the screen? |
Whill covered my response pretty succinctly.
Quote: | I don't see any change to gameplay. What are you talking about? |
...
The RAW supports an instantaneous transition to hyperspace, without an acceleration to lightspeed. If it were otherwise, there would be some sort of "minimum SUs traveled" or some other form of velocity threshold. There isn't. Ships simply travel through space at sublight velocities, then jump to hyperspace, with no distance covered.
I assumed you were engaged in this discussion to advocate a rule requiring ships to have some sort of acceleration lane factored into a hyperspace jump. Now, since you appear to be advocating for an interpretation of the rules that doesn't match with the RAW, I can only assume you are arguing simply for the sake of arguing.
Now, since this is the House Rules section, perhaps you should propose a House Rule that actually fits with your theory. Either that, or move on, and get back on topic. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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garhkal Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 14023 Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 1:37 am Post subject: |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | CRMcNeill wrote: | But it had not YET jumped to hyperspace. |
Exactly. The ships, as shown in the movies, accelerate on a velocity that takes them to lightspeed/entry into hyperspace.
I'm not sure where the disconnect here is. |
Only some. I just rewatched a Youtube clip showing vader's ship showing up, and it clearly shows that freighter actually going in regular speed probably Towards the jump spot, then vader's ship showing up, and there's barely 1 second before we see some bolts come from vader's ISD into the freighter blowing it up. So it didn't crash.. It got shot out of the sky. _________________ Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
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Zarn Force Spirit
Joined: 17 Jun 2014 Posts: 698
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 3:30 am Post subject: |
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Oh, and by the way: That apparent acceleration is called pseudomotion.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pseudomotion
It is sort of a consequence of the effect of jumping to hyperspace; it isn't an actual acceleration.
Similar to the classic "imagine a ball bouncing in a direction that can't be shown in our spacetime continuum". It might look like a point, rapidly growing to a ball, then vanishing down to a point again as it bounces.
https://youtu.be/0t4aKJuKP0Q?t=22 illustrates my point.
So it isn't actual acceleration. It is apparent acceleration. |
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Mamatried Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017 Posts: 1822 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:51 am Post subject: |
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I think it is possible to go from stationary to hyperspace in the pull of a lever.
If all this acceleration is needed, how come Han Solo could jump to hyperspace , from stand still and INSIDE a ship?
I dare say, for safety ships get distance and some speed before going hyperspace, but it is not actually needed |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017 Posts: 1448
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 9:42 am Post subject: |
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Whill wrote: | I'm not sure where the disconnect here is either.
https://youtu.be/sCVWm20fU0A?t=462
Go to the 7:45 mark in this video. Before Vader's destroyer appears, several ships jumped to hyperspace. Then it appears, but none of the ships are "accelerating to enter hyperspace". They are going normal sublight speeds and most turn away before crashing into it. |
I see why you think that, and you could be correct. But, when I look at it, the ship that is destroyed is starting its run to jump but doesn't get very far because the distance isn't very far. The Y-Wing aborts the jump and pulls up, avoiding the cruiser.
Here's my proof: Go back and look at the scene that you link above. Notice that all the ships that do jump to hyperspace have an engine flare just before they start their jump.
Note that the ship that crashes into Vader's ships has that flare. It just starts. The ship doesn't get far because of Vader's ship. But, it is jumping to hyperspace.
Quote: | The lights on its engines get brighter, but there is no actually acceleration whatsoever. |
Because it didn't have time to finish! Vader's ship popped in right when the engine's flared for that quick push to hyperspace.
If you notice on the other ships that get away, the flare happens then dies down...then the ship moves real fast to enter hyperspace.
With the ship that crashes, the engines flare. Vader's ship pops in before the engine flare dies down (and just before the superfast acceleration happens).
The ship was in process of jumping.
Had the ship completed it's process of jumping, it would probably tear a hole in Vader's ship because of the velocity, but that had not started yet.
When the command goes out to jump to lightspeed, all those ship turn to the same vector. Why are all the other ships jumping and this one not? Especially since it's not a fighter?
It was jumping, along with all the others. Vader's ship caught it at the right moment during the process of the jump. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017 Posts: 1448
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 9:51 am Post subject: |
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CRMcNeill wrote: | The RAW supports an instantaneous transition to hyperspace, without an acceleration to lightspeed. If it were otherwise, there would be some sort of "minimum SUs traveled" or some other form of velocity threshold. |
I don't think minimum SU's traveled is needed by the rules. And, whether you think the acceleration to lightspeed is needed or not, there is defintely some sort of acceleration needed and some sort of distance traveled because all the movies show it happening.
Quote: | There isn't. Ships simply travel through space at sublight velocities, then jump to hyperspace, with no distance covered. |
So, you subscribe to the idea that what we see in the films is an optical illusion--that ships really aren't moving and accelerating in normal space before at a hyper velocity just before making the jump to light speed.
Yeah, I don't buy that.
If ships don't move at all when jumping to hyperspace, then why do we see their engine thrusters flare just before they jump? Is that thrust not pushing the ship?
Last edited by Wajeb Deb Kaadeb on Wed May 23, 2018 10:30 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017 Posts: 1448
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:21 am Post subject: |
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I looked up this pseudomotion stuff. Not much in the Canon section of Wookieepedia. The Legends section says...
Quote: | Pseudomotion, the term referred to the seeming dramatic acceleration of a starship upon entering hyperspace. The equivalent phenomenon was observed upon re-entering realspace in the form of massive apparent deceleration. It is not understood if this is an illusion, as relativistic travel faster than the speed of light is impossible, or an effect of the dimensional transition from Hyperspace to Realspace. |
Also note that this is a Timothy Zahn thing. It was brought up in his new SW book called, "Thrawn." |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017 Posts: 1448
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:27 am Post subject: |
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This is pertinent to this conversation.
When Holdo makes her sacrifice, notice that she actually completes the jump to hyperspace. From inside, on the bridge, we see the starlines.
It is after this that the Supremacy is shown being torn apart.
So...Holdo's ship is in hyperspace....while in normal space, the Supremacy is destroyed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2hM1tyEL0U |
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, hold on a minute.
This discussion needs to have some ground rules set out.
The biggest question that must first be resolved is whether the Disney canon is in play. Given the references to R1, it seems apparent that it is.
If it is, then let me just point out the elephant in the room here: The end of TLJ, where Laura Dern jumps through the imperial ships.
That scene needs to be reconciled with the notion that hyperspace is a separate dimension and that ships don't "accelerate" to light speed. It also needs to be reconciled with the notuon that a nav computer will calculate a safe route (it should have been aware of the imperial ship in its path). |
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Mamatried Commodore
Joined: 16 Dec 2017 Posts: 1822 Location: Norway
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 2:56 pm Post subject: |
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If we consider that actually "entering hyperspace" is a process, the speed of the process varies with the ships systems.
Looking back to R1, and the "flashing" of the engines.
The crashing ship has began the process of entering hyperspace but naturally it hasn't
Looking to what Holdo did, to me it looked like two things,
A manual override of all sfety protocols ( her dialogue with the ship AI)
second she had more distance to snoke's ship compared to the fleeing rebels in R1.
Becuse of the distance the full process of entering hyperspace and "where and when so it hits snoke's ship" was now possible due to the "time it takes to process" entering hyperspace.
I doubt there is any scientific answer, and from what we see we know that you can enter hyperspace from standing still, but it seems safer to allow everthing to take it's turn for safety. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017 Posts: 1448
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | It also needs to be reconciled with the notuon that a nav computer will calculate a safe route (it should have been aware of the imperial ship in its path). |
Unless that was over-written and/or the safeties were turned off by Holdo when she engaged the ship. |
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Naaman Vice Admiral
Joined: 29 Jul 2011 Posts: 3191
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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It still begs the question of how the ship could cut another ship in half by accelerating through its physical space.
If safety protocols could so easily be overridden, then its too easy for the rebels or the empire to dust build droid ships that launch themselves into hyperspace as a "ram" attack. Infact, if the rebels havent figured this out by Ep. 9, then they really are hopeless. |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb Commodore
Joined: 07 Apr 2017 Posts: 1448
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Naaman wrote: | It still begs the question of how the ship could cut another ship in half by accelerating through its physical space. |
Lucas (and the WEG game) state that hyperspace is contemporaneous with normal space. That's part of it. Both exist during the same time frame--which is an easy way of saying that there's no time dilation.
I don't have an answer yet. But, I do like how Disney has made hyperspace interesting again. I feel like I did when I first watched ANH. I didn't understand, completely, how hyperspace worked. I had a thirst to know.
That thirst is back. Do, Kudos, Disney.
Quote: | If safety protocols could so easily be overridden, then its too easy for the rebels or the empire to dust build droid ships that launch themselves into hyperspace as a "ram" attack. Infact, if the rebels havent figured this out by Ep. 9, then they really are hopeless. |
True. You'd figure that the Rebels would make a ship designed for exactly that purpose to take out the DS II (probably didn't have enough time with the DS I). |
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CRMcNeill Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010 Posts: 16163 Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote: | I don't think minimum SU's traveled is needed by the rules. And, whether you think the acceleration to lightspeed is needed or not, there is definitely some sort of acceleration needed and some sort of distance traveled because all the movies show it happening. |
Make up your mind. Either a ship needs room to accelerate from normal sublight velocities up to lightspeed in order to transition to hyperspace or it doesn't. In case of the former, if what we see in the films is actual physical acceleration, then it will require some sort of "launch path" within which to occur, and that path must have a distance value greater than 0. In case of the later, all we are seeing is an optical illusion caused by the ship transitioning into hyperspace without any forward motion apart from its pre-jump sublight velocity.
Quote: | So, you subscribe to the idea that what we see in the films is an optical illusion--that ships really aren't moving and accelerating in normal space before at a hyper velocity just before making the jump to light speed.
Yeah, I don't buy that. |
No kidding. Not only do I subscribe to it, so does the RAW, and the EU, and it makes more sense than your supposition.
Quote: | If ships don't move at all when jumping to hyperspace, then why do we see their engine thrusters flare just before they jump? Is that thrust not pushing the ship? |
That's called "spinning up" or "spooling up" to use modern parlance for jet engines and the like. Put simply, the drives are "revving up" to feed power to the hyperdrive instead of the sublight drives, as it is reasonable to assume that a jump to hyperspace requires a fair bit of extra power. That's why we don't see any visible acceleration until the hyperdrive engages (at which point we see the speed blur of a jump to hyperspace); the power is being directed somewhere other than sublight thrust. _________________ "No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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