The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Hyperspace Change of Course
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules -> Hyperspace Change of Course Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 10814
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Rolling Eyes


You mock. But this is fundamentally supported by canon, FWIW.

How so? If that were the case, this would be happening all the time, and enemy forces would be on the lookout for it. My explanation at least has the virtue of explaining how what Holdo did with the Raddus is possible, while also ensuring that it remains an extremely rare desperation tactic.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Grimace
Captain
Captain


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 580
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
Rolling Eyes


You mock. But this is fundamentally supported by canon, FWIW.


Sorry, I have to disagree with the "supported" idea.
The ramming of the Raddus into the Supremacy was a one-off event, just like firing proton torpedoes without a targeting computer and having them "turn" down a thermal exhaust port.

Droids could not do it, they have their own preservation protocols. Unlikely people would build sufficiently large ships to be used simply as "rams". And hyperdrives and nav computers have so many safety protocols to prevent them from running into other things that it's not a simple thing of just designing one that didn't have the safety protocols. That would be like saying you saw a vehicle engine in a modern car that didn't use electricity and didn't use fuel/gas, yet it still worked. So why don't they build a bunch of those? Just because you can do it once, doesn't mean it can be done a bunch of times.

So, no, there isn't support to having whole fleets of one droid ships flying around doing kamikaze attacks on Imperial Star Destroyers.
Can't override droid preservation
Can't override hyperdrive safety measures with a flip of a switch
Can't override nav computer safety protocols with a flip of a switch
Can't find manufacturers willing to build large ships with hypderives, engines, nav computers, flight controls, shields, fuel, maneuvering engines, etc. simply for the act of destroying said expensive ship in a kamikaze attack
Can't find enough suicidal people with enough knowledge and expertise to override all of those safety protocols to fly the above ships into things.

Sorry, there's nothing to support that as a viable tactic anywhere in the Star Wars roleplaying universe. And if you have players with characters that have that sort of skill and the willingness to kill themselves in a kamikaze attack with a big ship, you may have an issue with how you're running your game and what sort of emphasis you place on playing a character correctly. People shouldn't throw away their PC's at a whim "because I can just make another one".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Whill
Supreme Chancellor (Site Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 4585
Location: Columbus, OHIO, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grimace, great points. I like how you cut through to the heart of the matter.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Nope, RAW doesn't subscribe to the pseudomotion idea. That only just appeared in the Zahn novel, Thrawn.

If you think so, then show me where in the rules it says that.
CRMcNeill wrote:
I don’t need to. All you have is a throwaway line from a 1E sourcebook that was deliberately removed in the 2E version and a bunch of video clips that don’t show what you say they show. I’m not wasting my time proving a negative.
Zarn wrote:
The reason why the only reference was to "Thrawn", was because that is new (Disney) canon. The Legends (EU) tab shows the following:

"Pseudomotion, the term referred to the seeming dramatic acceleration of a starship upon entering hyperspace. The equivalent phenomenon was observed upon re-entering realspace in the form of massive apparent deceleration. It is not understood if this is an illusion, as relativistic travel faster than the speed of light is impossible, or an effect of the dimensional transition from Hyperspace to Realspace."

I do agree it was Zahn who came up with the term and the description; the references are Zahn books. Possibly the best EU books there is, but your FTL mileage may vary.

It does jive pretty closely to what Whill pointed out, though, and it seems to follow what I've been arguing - that Hyperspace is dimensional travel, not realspace FTL.

Wajeb, the game doesn't have to mention pseudomotion (by any term) because it is inconsequential to how jumping to lightspeed works in the game. RAW does not support ships needing to accelerate to FTL speeds in realspace before jumping to lightspeed. You roll astrogation and the rules tell you when the ship instantaneously enters hyperspace. The only place where WEG fluff text mentions realspace acceleration is in one of the first two WEG SW RPG books and it was edited out in the second edition for the obvious reason that it was an incorrect statement. Pseudomotion is just fluff to describe the visual effect in the films of ships entering hyperspace. It has no impact on the way anything functionally works in the SWU or the game. The rebel ship that is immediately destroyed when Vader's ship enters the Scarif system only has its engine flare up because it is about to jump to hyperspace - The film evidence clearly shows there is no acceleration whatsoever.

Wajeb, you can have jumping to lightspeed work any way you want in your SWU and your game. But I politely ask you to please cease and desist with this pointless argument. Thank you.

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
Because you can't prove it. Your stance is as weak as you say mine is. Shocked

CRMcNeill wrote:
Ah, the rhetorical equivalent of “I know you are but what am I?”

Watch closely, class, this is what’s called “grasping at straws.”

'I'm right and you're wrong.' Really? Come on guys. Everyone please keep it chill here. I have a lot of work in my job to get done for the next couple hours, and then I have to pick up my son from school to take him to the dentist, and then feed him dinner and walk the dog before the movie tonight. I don't have time to be on the forums today.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration & Log-In Help


Last edited by Whill on Thu May 24, 2018 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 10814
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome back, Grim.
Grimace wrote:
Can't override droid preservation

This is my only disagreement. Droid self preservation is a result of programming, and programming can be rewritten. Technically, a homing missile is a droid without self preservation programming.

However, I do think that such droids should have to be either specifically designed as such, or that said programming should be very hard to override.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 10814
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wajeb Deb Kaadeb wrote:
CRMcNeill seems to think that it is consequential. He says the game would have a minimum distance rule.

You are the one fighting tooth-and-nail to insist that jumping to hyperspace requires that the ship accelerate to the speed of light. Acceleration must, by definition, occur on at least one dimension, gathering speed as one moves away from Point A. Yet there is no part of the actual rules - of either edition - for hyperspace jumps that supports any sort of linear acceleration. You are, in effect, arguing for an interpretation of hyperspace jumps that does not fit the rules, then insisting that you have no intention of changing the rules to match your interpretation. That’s willful cognitive dissonance.



Quote:
1E absolutely does say that, as I've quoted for you from the 1E Sourcebook.

If you play under the 1E rules, as I do, it's a valid rule.

And, 2E doesn't change it. The wording in 2E ignores it and speaks to a different point.

As has been stated previously, this forum defaults to 2nd edition. If you wish to discuss something that occurs in 1E that has been deliberately omitted from 2E, there is a 1E section for that.

Yes, 2E DOES change it by specifically removing it from the core definition of hyperspace, even though they kept everything else.

Quote:
The same as the 1E Sourcebook comment that FTL speeds must be attained to enter hyperspace. I'm sure that was written to describe the visual effect we all see in the films.

And was subsequently removed from later versions, to be replaced with the pseudo motion concept. After all, an optical illusion resembling massive acceleration to light speed would be insistinguishable from actual acceleration.


Quote:
Again, you are confusing me with CRMcNeill here. I've never argued that the functionally of the game is changed or should be changed.

Then it seems particularly pointless to have brought it up in the first place.



Quote:
The process is started. It crashes just before acceleration would start.

Therefore, because the drive was powering up, but had not yet engaged, all the momentum driving the collision was from the ship’s sublight drives. As you say, there was no hyperdrive acceleration.

Quote:
My argument is not pointless. Just because you don't agree with it, I'm supposed to not state what I think is correct???

I believe I'm correct in what I say.

What is the point, exactly, then? Because if you are going to insist that 1E trumps 2E in a fashion that deviates from the accepted understanding of hyperspace jumps, the logical conclusion would be a house rule of some kind (what with this being the House Rule section and all). Yet you have specifically rejected any notion of making a house rule. So what’s your point?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 11754
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
I dont interpret it that way. Just plot a hyperspace course through the path that the ISD is sitting in. Doesnt matter wher where to. Just anglethe ship in thedirection of the target and jump to hyperspace. Simply build a hyperdrive/nav software that eschews the safety protocols.

Its no more complex than making a kamikaze attack... just puch the hypersrive at the right distance/timing from the target.


I disagree Naam. I see it like Crm does, that its hard to plot said course. I see it like threading the needle in how Kyp Durron guided a ship through the gravity eddies in the Maw cluster. Not everyone can do it..

CRMcNeill wrote:
Welcome back, Grim.
Grimace wrote:
Can't override droid preservation

This is my only disagreement. Droid self preservation is a result of programming, and programming can be rewritten. Technically, a homing missile is a droid without self preservation programming.

However, I do think that such droids should have to be either specifically designed as such, or that said programming should be very hard to override.


And the RPG even gives rules for doing just that, overriding the life safety programming..
_________________
It's Not who you kill, but how they die!
You cannot dodge it if you do not know it is coming, and you cannot hit it if you do not know its there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Naaman
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 29 Jul 2011
Posts: 2237

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I respect all the POVs that dissent from my own. But its still "too easy" to make a ship that can jump tp hyperspacce through a star destroyer or what havey you. Note: I am not saying that the enemy ship is the target destination on thr nav computer. Only that the ISD is "in the way" when the ship jumps to light speed.
All the pilot has to do is initiate the jump while facing the ISD.

Safety prptocols? No need to override them if they arent there in the first place. Droid preservation? Just use a form of missile guidance software as the brain of the ship. Problem solved. In fact, all you really need is a hyperdrive itself and some thrusters for sublight manevering. It would be much cheaper than using an actual ship for the attack.

Biggest problem is tht it would break the game and the story. But as a tactic, if one side or the other hasnt figured this out by EP9, my suspension of disbelief is going to be at major risk.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mamatried
Captain
Captain


Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 535
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
Well, I respect all the POVs that dissent from my own. But its still "too easy" to make a ship that can jump tp hyperspacce through a star destroyer or what havey you. Note: I am not saying that the enemy ship is the target destination on thr nav computer. Only that the ISD is "in the way" when the ship jumps to light speed.
All the pilot has to do is initiate the jump while facing the ISD.

Safety prptocols? No need to override them if they arent there in the first place. Droid preservation? Just use a form of missile guidance software as the brain of the ship. Problem solved. In fact, all you really need is a hyperdrive itself and some thrusters for sublight manevering. It would be much cheaper than using an actual ship for the attack.

Biggest problem is tht it would break the game and the story. But as a tactic, if one side or the other hasnt figured this out by EP9, my suspension of disbelief is going to be at major risk.



To be fair, it looked like Holdo entered hyperspace before impact.
And yes this indicates acceleration of sorts.

Seeing the scene in R1 I would equally argue if the rebel ship had managed to get up to speed(Hyperspace) then it would have disintegrated but as in ep 9 taken out vader's destroyer
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 10814
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The core of the current argument seems not to be whether or not acceleration is taking place, but whether or not said acceleration is taking place in normal space or hyperspace.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mamatried
Captain
Captain


Joined: 16 Dec 2017
Posts: 535
Location: Norway

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The core of the current argument seems not to be whether or not acceleration is taking place, but whether or not said acceleration is taking place in normal space or hyperspace.



How about both?

Real Spce acceleration upto a certain point then hyperspace takes over......
This sort of makes sense if faster than light, at the point you reach light speed you see the "hyperspace visuals" and becuse the acceleration is so extreme you see what we see from the falcon's cockpit in the transition to the jump.

I also think that the acceleration ends when the max hyperdive number is reached and fro then you actually begin to decelrate.

If we reverse the "view from the falcon" we can easily imagine the ship simply "popping" up as it comes out of hyperspace, through a rapid decelleration into real space and real space speed or sublight speed as they say
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 10814
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because it’s easier from a game rules standpoint to say that the acceleration is entirely within hyperspace, and that the speed-blur effect is just an optical illusion. If the acceleration occurs in real space, it must by definition occur across some sort of distance (measurable in SUs) from the point at which the hyperdrive initiates the jump to the point at which the ship enters hyperspace. There would also need to be some sort of rule for what happens if a collision occurred during that acceleration phase. Yet there isn’t, for either.

The current interpretation, which is supported by the RAW (both in actual content and by omission of the above) is that the jump occurs at the exact point at which the ship’s hyperdrive engages.

Incorporating both would require a needless rewrite of the rules that would provide no tangible benefit to gameplay.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Grimace
Captain
Captain


Joined: 11 Oct 2004
Posts: 580
Location: Montana; Big Sky Country

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:


Safety prptocols? No need to override them if they arent there in the first place. Droid preservation? Just use a form of missile guidance software as the brain of the ship. Problem solved. In fact, all you really need is a hyperdrive itself and some thrusters for sublight manevering. It would be much cheaper than using an actual ship for the attack.
.


Sorry gents, a missile guidance, while it might utilize computers or circuits, is no more a droid than an X-Wing fighter is a droid. A missile cannot punch in the coordinates in the nav computer in order to initiate the process to begin a jump.

Thus, a missile is not a droid, which is why it can fly into something and detonate. Name one droid that we've seen in the movie who didn't do something to "keep itself alive"? Even the simplistic battle droids in the prequels would back away from attacking Jedi while trying to shoot and kill the Jedi. The battle droids did not want to die if they did not have to. They did not have the brain of a missile guidance computer in a homing missile, they were a droid and thus had some form of preservation protocols.

If you believe a droid can "learn" behavior or gain feelings of "attachment" to humans or things, or even exhibit "obedience", then it would be ingrained into the circuits of the droid, not just a simple program that could be removed by simply not installing it. If battle droids and droidekas exhibited preservation protocols, any droid with programming enough to both PILOT a ship and plot courses into a nav computer is certainly going to have those protocols.

And no, it's not "too easy" to simply jump to space if there was a Star Destroyer somewhere in your way, and wipe them out. Again, safety protocols built-in to both the nav computer (won't plot a course through a mass shadow) and hyperdrive (automatically cuts out within a certain proximity of a mass shadow to avoid collision with said mass shadow) are such that it will NEVER be "easy".

How many times have you seen such a move done in the movies? How about in the cartoons? ONE!

If it was easy, it would have been done before.

Do you think it's easy to shoot two proton torpedoes down the exhaust port of a Death Star without a targeting computer? We've seen that done exactly ONE time also, but you don't hear people saying that it was easy, do you?

If you continue to perpetuate the "ease" of ramming a ship into another ship at hyperspace speeds, you'll only add to the problem internet-wide of people claiming that such a thing is now a viable tactic. I can pretty much guarantee you that people weren't thinking what Luke did in Star Wars (A New Hope for you younger people) was an easy things and a perfectly viable tactic for destroying everything from that point forward.

So let's use some common sense and realize that this was a one-time FEAT in Star Wars, akin (but not exactly on par with) to Luke at the first Death Star.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 10814
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That depends greatly on how broadly one classifies the word “droid.” A missile guidance system capable of tracking a target through sensors and steering an intercept course could easily be classified as a simple droid brain in SWU terms. It may not look like a droid in the same sense that Threepio does, but then, neither does the MSE-6 Mouse Droid on the Death Star. And a missile being directed by a droid brain guidance system would qualify as a body for all intents and purposes.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
Amazing. Everything you just said was wrong.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Whill
Supreme Chancellor (Site Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 4585
Location: Columbus, OHIO, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
The core of the current argument seems not to be whether or not acceleration is taking place, but whether or not said acceleration is taking place in normal space or hyperspace.

For everyone, I just wanted to say that I feel this 'acceleration in realspace or hyperspace' argument has been fully expressed by both sides. No one is changing anyone else's mind. So let's all just agree to disagree on this and move on. Thanks.

Please do continue to discuss the OP thread subject and the other tangents of this thread.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration & Log-In Help
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 11754
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So getting back to 'changing course'.
For those who DO feel it should be allowed, while a ship is still in hyperspace', what sort of astrogation (or other) roll would be needed to make said shift?
_________________
It's Not who you kill, but how they die!
You cannot dodge it if you do not know it is coming, and you cannot hit it if you do not know its there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> House Rules All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Page 9 of 11

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0