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Duros Starship Intuition
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: Duros Starship Intuition Reply with quote

I took part in a Facebook discussion about the mechanics of the skill bonuses given to different species. This reminds me why I do not like to take part in such discussion on Facebook. Anyway, below was my response to someone who doubles not every initial D placed in one of the bonus skills (giving a 4D total for 2D expenditure), but also doubles the bonus for specialization in the same skills. Please take a look at what I posted and comment.

Don wrote:
To start off I do not wish to seem confrontational. People can run their games and adjudicate the rules however they want. I am only suggesting that in some cases, due to a lack of editing, time, and space some rules are being applied not as they were intended. The same as we talk about the difference between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. With that being said I have suggested that the "spirit" or intended game mechanic for the Skill Bonus is a single 2D for 1D or to be more concise, a single +1D bonus.

The Duros species write-up states, "When a Duros character is generated, 1D (no more) may be placed in the following skills, for which the character receives 2D of ability..." This is clear and straight forward, no ambiguity can reasonably be argued. This also "feels" as though it gives a uniqueness to the species in question without being overpowered. So we have:

1. Clear, concise ruling.
2. Self-limiting, giving game mechanic balance.

Under the Duros Skill Bonus it further states, "This bonus also applies to any specializations." This is confusing and seems an odd thing to include in a rule description, making me wonder if this this was added from the 1E write-up of the species to the 2E version as specializations were not introduced until 2E. Perhaps poor editing, a misunderstanding of the specialization rule between editions, etc. The bottom line, what purpose does it serve and what does it mean?

I think this a reflection of how the bonus is added to the "parent" skill. With the introduction of specialization it states specializations are a separate skill from the parent skill. That being the case it could be misunderstood that the bonus would apply only to the "parent" skill and not the specialization. Therefore the writer felt a clarification was needed, especially between game editions introducing a new rules mechanic. I think this is a reasonable assumption, especially as this does not appear in any other species write-ups I could find.

Example: A Duros character has Technical 4D and places 1D into Computer Programming/Repair, this doubles to 2D giving Computer Programming/Repair 6D. He then decides to specialize this skill with Computer Programming/Repair: security systems giving him a +1D bonus. So the character would, per the 2E rules, incorrectly have Computer Programming/Repair 6D and Computer Programming/Repair: security systems 5D.

Finally, under the Duros write-up it states, "If the character wishes to have more than 2D in the skill listed, then the skill costs are normal from there on." Again this is confusing, as the rules state you cannot place more than 2D into any given skill during character creation, which leads me to believe this refers to the initial 2D for 1D skill bonus, otherwise it does not make sense. Because this is so poorly written it is important to keep in mind context and intent as well as how are the base rules, specialization and initial character creation, adjudicated. I would encourage an editing of the section to read as:

Starship Intuition: Duros are, by their nature, extremely skilled starship pilots and navigators. At character generation a Duros character may place 1D in the following skills, for which they recieve a +1D bonus (2D total): archaic starship piloting, astrogation, capital ship gunnery, capital ship shields, sensors, space transports, starfighter piloting, starship gunnery, and starship shields. This is a one time bonus and only applies to the initial 1D placed in the skills listed above. The character may place an additional 1D in the skill for a total of 2D skill die expenditure.

As I stated, this is not an issue of "the rules clearly state...", but is a logical supposition of the intent of the rule. It is an attempt to "correct" unintended issues based on inconcise writing.

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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your clarified interpretation is pretty much how I've always understood the ability to mean, so I think you're on point.
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Mamatried
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always understood this bonus to work this way:

At creation ONLY the Duro can place 1D in the starship piloting skills and get 2D.
If specialized then this bonus applies to the specialization

MECH 3D

Starfighter Pilot 5D ( 1D placed)

Or if using the specialization rules

Starfighter Pilot : 5D ( 1D placed)
Starfighter Pilot; X wing 6D


The latter falling in more or less like general specialization, with the 1D =2D bonus carrying over.

It also to me states that you choose 1D for this, ergo you can max get a +2D to the skill ( IF using the bonus)
and not a +4D by placing 2D.

It does not say every 1D olaced gain 2D
it say 1D placed in the relevant skills turns to 2D at creation, this can include the specialization
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UGH I HATE FACEBOOK!

David Anderson wrote:
And I think you're misinterpreting. The Duro gets 2D because he placed 1D. He didn't *place* 2D. He can *have* 3D by *placing* 2D.

It also clarifies that specializations *start* at the parent skill. There's no precedent for the specialization to be less than the parent skill at creation. I've got no idea where you got that from. Plus if they're separate skills, why should they not get the 2-for-1 bonus?

Also, it's plausible different species would have different degrees of bonuses. Maybe the Filvians' Technical bonus was supposed to be better than the Duros' Mechanical one. Maybe that's why they got docked 2D in attributes.

It's not some crazy home rule I'm using here. It's all a totally reasonable and plausible interpretation of the rules. Play it your way, but this isn't some bro doing totally out-of-left-field per gaming.


Shootingwomprats wrote:
You seem to be getting hostile and all I was doing was suggesting or positing something different. I have said several times, people can do as they like. As for the example I gave, it clearly states, "So the character would, per the 2E rules, incorrectly have..." It was an illustration of how a 1E player may misunderstand the 2E specialization rule.

Since specialization was not introduced until 2E, it makes sense that someone at WEG, when updating, specifically the Duros write-up, from 1E to 2E might attempt to write the Skill Bonus section to include the new specialization rule in a manner that a 1E player would understand. I personally feel this was written badly and was not vetted or properly edited by the copy editor.

Within the core rulebook all examples of specialization show the player has picked their skills and that they may spend the last 1D of their remaining skill dice for three specializations. There are no example of a specialization being upgraded with skill dice.

In the case of Duros skill specialization, if I understand your interpretation, not only does the character get a 2D for 1D bonus on the "parent" skill which the specialized skill benefits from, the specialized skill receives another doubling bonus, a 2D for a +1 pip expenditure? So essentially getting a double-double bonus? That's nuts.

As for the Flivian 2D for 1D for every Technical skill, with the limit only being the 2D in a single skill at character creation? That is up to you. I agree, it says what it says and it is clear.

For me, the game is riddled with instances where players can break the system. As well as instances where a decent editor with enough time and people could have fixed many of those. I personally find the 2D for 1D with no limit one of those instances.

I feel the 2D for initial 1D in a bonus skill gives enough of a bonus to make the character special without breaking the game or discouraging other players because they did not get as many bonuses. I also feel that it is in-line with the "spirit" of the rules and gives some needed balance.

Not everyone will see it this way and that is fine. I am not looking to tell someone they are doing it wrong and they have to do it my way. This is just a different way of interpreting mechanics.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mamatried wrote:
I always understood this bonus to work this way:

At creation ONLY the Duro can place 1D in the starship piloting skills and get 2D.
If specialized then this bonus applies to the specialization

MECH 3D

Starfighter Pilot 5D ( 1D placed)

Or if using the specialization rules

Starfighter Pilot : 5D ( 1D placed)
Starfighter Pilot; X wing 6D


The latter falling in more or less like general specialization, with the 1D =2D bonus carrying over.

It also to me states that you choose 1D for this, ergo you can max get a +2D to the skill ( IF using the bonus)
and not a +4D by placing 2D.

It does not say every 1D olaced gain 2D
it say 1D placed in the relevant skills turns to 2D at creation, this can include the specialization


Id the specialty also doubles, would't it be
Mech 3d, starfighter piloting 5d (for 1d placed) Spec Xwing 7d (for 1 pip)?
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Id the specialty also doubles, would't it be
Mech 3d, starfighter piloting 5d (for 1d placed) Spec Xwing 7d (for 1 pip)?


As it is written yes, it is how I see it.
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I read it:

Quote:
Example: Duros with Mechanical 3D+2 puts 1D into starship piloting, giving him starship piloting 5D+2, places another die into the skill for a total of 2D, giving a skill of starship piloting 6D+2. He takes the specialization starship piloting: YT-2400 7D+2.


The person was saying the specialization would be doubled as well. In this example, giving it starship piloting: YT-2400 8D+2.

Essentially a double-double.

Quote:
Starship Intuition: Duros are, by their nature, extremely skilled starship pilots and navigators. When a Duros character is generated, 1D (no more) may be placed in the following skills, for which the character receives 2D of ability: archaic starship piloting, astrogation, capital ship gunnery, capital ship shields, sensors, space transports, starfighter piloting, starship gunnery, and starship shields. This bonus also applies to any specializations. If the character wishes to have more than 2D in the skill listed, then the skill costs are normal from there on.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But I would make a GM ruling that you couldn't double dip. I.E., you can't up a skill for a 2D, and then up a specialization for another 2D. It would in effect nullify the stipulation that you can only get the +1D bonus once.
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shootingwomprats
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, my thoughts are this is a bad write up trying to explain specialization and making things unclear. I don't think an editor had the time to proof this. It needs a better write-up.
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe that's why some groups i've gamed with over the years, ignore those races blocks which say "gains 2d for every 1d placed in) stuff.. Cause they are too unclear for some of them and rather than re-write all the unclear ones, they just made a blanket "NONE work" rule.
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shootingwomprats wrote:
Again, my thoughts are this is a bad write up trying to explain specialization and making things unclear. I don't think an editor had the time to proof this. It needs a better write-up.


Totally agree.
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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 11:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a new write-up for the Duros, I borrowed all the text from wookieepedia, so don't blame me for missing information, bad information, or grammatical errors.

Quote:
Duros
Also known occasionally as Durosians, are a humanoid species native to the planet Duro who are among the galaxy's first space faring civilizations. Their homeworld is located on the Corellian Trade Spine, a major hyperspace route that links Duro with other important commercial centers.

Biology and Appearance
The Duros are humanoids with smooth blue-green skin, red eyes, lipless mouths, long thin noseless faces and green blood. Olfactory organs beneath their eyes are responsible for their sense of smell. Both females and males are bald, though both genders are easily distinguished. Their large red goggle-like eyes also have slit pupils. Duros females lay eggs as they are descended from ancient reptiles, and like the Neimoidians, they are born in a larval grub stage, but unlike their cousins who leave the raising of their young mainly to the state, the Duros take care of their offspring from birth.

Society
While usually taciturn, Duros enjoy telling stories about their travels. It is said Duros have a photographic memory when it comes to the telling of tales and stories. Many Duros are pilots and explorers, and are adventurous, though sometimes rash. As one of the first cultures to develop hyperdrive spacecraft (some even believe the first), Duros-charted trade routes are among the oldest hyperspace routes still in use during the Imperial era. Even in the later periods of galactic history, Duros are still known for their superior astro-navigational skills. Their affinity for traveling led many Duros to prefer the honorific title of "Traveler" despite their occupation or craft of choice, and addressing them as such is considered good etiquette. The Duros language is Durese, which is a lingua franca of sorts amongst spacers.

Their home planet Duro is primarily uninhabited due to massive pollution on the world over time. Instead, it is covered with automated farms for food production. The Duros live in twenty orbital space cities above the planet.

The Duros established a vast, grand starship construction industry in the Duro system that rivals that in the Corellian system. The Duros set their government around a consortium of starship construction corporations, with all important political decisions made by the stockholders of the corporations. This means that any Duros that hold stock in a company can participate in the administration of the system.

The Duros are also one of the founding races of the Galactic Republic. Years before the formation of the Republic, the Duros colonized the planet Neimoidia, giving rise to a genetically distinct "newer version" of Duros, the Neimoidians. The Neimoidians retain many similarities to their Duros cousins including basic form, noseless faces, and green skin (though Neimoidians tend to be grayer). However, in contrast to their ancestors, Neimoidians possess pupils that split horizontally, lumpy foreheads, and perpetually frowning mouths. In addition, Neimoidians tend to be cowardly, greedy and fearful of death, whereas the average Duro is adventurous, gregarious and peaceful. Not surprisingly, one of the most powerful insults among the Duros is to be called a Neimoidian. By the time of the rise of the New Republic, however, the Duros are friendlier towards the Neimoidians, and respected their business skills.

After a young Duros is born, they are cared for and raised by their family members. This is another thing that sets them apart from the Neimoidians, who do not atively care for their young actively.

The Duros lending tradition is followed by the Duros when asking for loans to Duros lending institutions. Failing to comply with its terms will impose a severe social stigma for them.

History
The Duros originated on the planet Duro long before the dawn of the Galactic Republic. In 100,000 BBY, Duro was surveyed by the Columi, who were not impressed. Later, Duro was conquered by the Rakata of the Infinite Empire and the native Duros were enslaved. Duros slaves were used to create the Star Forge in 30,000 BBY. However, they tolerated their cruel overlords, since it was an occasion for the ever-curious Duros to learn about their inter-stellar technology.

Following a plague in 25,200 BBY that killed only Rakata, the Duros rebelled and overthrew their Rakatan masters. The Duros then formed a hereditary monarchy. After the fall of the Empire, they quickly reverse-engineered the engines left by the Rakata, and thus invented the hyperspace cannon independently of the Corellians.

At an early age, the Duros became interested in exploration and ventured off their homeworld to explore the galaxy and their interstellar technology linked Duro with Coruscant, Corellia, and other Core Worlds; with the Corellians they built the first arm of the Corellian Trade Spine and with the invention of the hyperdrive, the planet entered a Golden Age as a Core Founder in 25,053 BBY under Queen Rana Mas Trehalt. The Duros also constructed large shipyards and spacedocks in their planet's orbit. The monarchy was eventually abolished in favor of a collection of ruling corporations.

The Duros colonized Neimoidia during their earliest wave of expansion, though the Neimoidians were considered a separate culture by 15,000 BBY. The Duros also discovered Sneeve in the Kymoodon Era, Adner in 5000 BBY, and Koboth prior to 219 BBY.

In 3962 BBY, the planet itself was laid to near-total waste during the Mandalorian Wars, when the Mandalorian invasion fleet advancing on the Colonies and Core regions destroyed much of the world using thousands of Basilisk war droids. Years of misery and rebuilding were ahead of the Duros people, merely the latest phase in the long series of Sith Wars. In 1003 BBY, during the New Sith Wars, the Duros colony on Harpori was wiped out by Kaox Krul.

In 220 BBY, during Duro's Industrial Age, the mining city of Tayana reached its height. In 200 BBY, the Tiercam Dam was built. The Duros also set up large food processing plants that polluted Duro's atmosphere, forcing the them to relocate to 20 orbiting cities throughout their home system.

In 20 BBY, during the Clone Wars, the Confederacy of Independent Systems launched Operation Durge's Lance, a coordinated major campaign that led to the capture of Duro. The swift success of the campaign sent shockwaves throughout the Galactic Republic, and even neutral Corellia began to tighten its defenses.

After the Clone Wars, the Galactic Empire collected what was left of Duro's natural resources, and forced many Duros to move off the planet. In an attempt to stir up conflict between Duro and Corellia, the Empire declared Duro to be part of the Corellian sector.

In 5 ABY, the prisoner Triclops was moved to Duro by Grand Moff Bertroff Hissa. However, Triclops escaped and saved his son Ken from Hissa. Although the New Republic managed to save Duros archaeologists from the Valley of Royalty, the Valley itself was flooded with toxic waste when the Tiercam Dam burst.

The New Republic eventually liberated the planet, and put the system back in the Duro Sector. Ecosystem purification teams cleaned up the planet's atmosphere as best they could. In 10 ABY, Duro was retaken by the Empire during Operation Shadow Hand. However, it was eventually liberated by the New Republic.

In 13 ABY, CorDuro Shipping took control of the Pri-Andylan shipyards. In 25 ABY, Jedi Tresina Lobi and Thrynni Vae discovered CorDuro Shipping's ties to the Peace Brigade, resulting in the Brigade murdering Thrynni.

In 26 ABY, the New Republic attempted to make Duro habitable and settle refugees there, though their efforts were sabotaged by the Yuuzhan Vong agent Nom Anor. The Yuuzhan Vong conquered Duro and managed to reverse centuries of pollution in just two years. Later, the planet was liberated by the Galactic Federation of Free Alliances and it is likely that the Duros returned to the now lush Duro after the war's end.

DUROS
Home Planet: Duro
Attribute Dice: 12D
DEXTERITY 1D/4D
KNOWLEDGE 1D+1/2D+2
MECHANICAL 2D/4D+2
PERCEPTION 1D/3D
STRENGTH 1D/3D
TECHNICAL 1D+2/4D
Special Abilities:

--- Starship Intuition: Duros are, by their nature, extremely skilled starship pilots and navigators. At character generation a Duros character recieves a +1D bonus for the initial 1D placed in the following skills: astrogation, communications, sensors, space transports, starship gunnery, and starship shields. The character may place an additional 1D in one of these skills as the +1D bonus does not apply to the character creation 2D skill die expenditure limit.
Story Factor:
--- Storytellers: Duros are known to be avid storytellers, especially when regalling about their previous adventures or those of friends and family members.
Move: 10/12
Size: 1.8-2.2 meters tall
GM Notes:
1. In the available background materials, Duros are best known for their astrogation ability. Since they have had access to hyperdrives longer than any other known race, they did establish early interstellar trade routes and visited a great number of other planets long before other species, giving them an advantage in trade, economics, and information. The question arises, does this equate to the race being better at operating a starship?
2. If GM doesn't think so, then only give a Skill Bonus to the astrogation skill.
3. Furthermore, the GM may feel the Duros have an above average knowledge about other planets and cultures. If so the GM could add planetary systems to the Skill Bonus list.
Source: Ultimate Alien Anthology (page 51), Alien Anthology (pages 69-70), Galaxy Guide 4: Alien Races (pages 39-40), Aliens Stats (pg.41), wookieepedia, tweaks by +Oliver Queen.

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