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1e's Haste System
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nuclearwookiee
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:50 am    Post subject: 1e's Haste System Reply with quote

To you 1e experts: Is the Rules Companion the first time 1e's haste system is discussed? If not, could you kindly point me in the right direction?
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To my knowledge it is the first time it is discussed in detail. I thought I had seen a note about hurrying in the 1E core rules but can not find it now.
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Pel
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haste originated in the Rules Companion. It was one of the few broken changes introduced in that book and honestly it gave me a headache 30 years ago. We tried it and the combat rounds quickly devolved into declarations of haste, double haste, triple haste, and the penultimate double dog haste (I'm not joking).

Before long our Star Wars session more closely resembled a school yard taunting match as the players attempted to act and react at ever-increasing fractions of c. I even briefly pondered introducing relativistic effects before declaring a recess, scrapping haste, and happily going back to the simultaneous actions everyone enjoyed in plain vanilla 1E.

Sorry. Hadn't thought about that in a while and apparently had a lot to say on the subject. Smile
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Whill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 1e's Haste System Reply with quote

KageRyu wrote:
To my knowledge it is the first time it is discussed in detail. I thought I had seen a note about hurrying in the 1E core rules but can not find it now.

Haste doesn't "hurry" actions per se. In the no-initiative system of 1e, Haste effectively just makes actions happen sooner than they otherwise would, at a penalty. Haste was not mentioned in any form in the 1e core.

Pel wrote:
Haste originated in the Rules Companion.

Haste actually originated in the 1988 Rules Update, but the concept of Haste did appear again in the 1989 RC.

Pel wrote:
It was one of the few broken changes introduced in that book and honestly it gave me a headache 30 years ago. We tried it and the combat rounds quickly devolved into declarations of haste, double haste, triple haste, and the penultimate double dog haste (I'm not joking).

Before long our Star Wars session more closely resembled a school yard taunting match as the players attempted to act and react at ever-increasing fractions of c. I even briefly pondered introducing relativistic effects before declaring a recess, scrapping haste, and happily going back to the simultaneous actions everyone enjoyed in plain vanilla 1E.

Sorry. Hadn't thought about that in a while and apparently had a lot to say on the subject. Smile

I do not disagree that Haste could be a headache!

nuclearwookiee wrote:
To you 1e experts: Is the Rules Companion the first time 1e's haste system is discussed? If not, could you kindly point me in the right direction?

You can view all four pages of the Rules Upgrade here: http://adventuresandshopping.blogspot.com/2011/06/rules-upgrade-for-star-wars-weg-d6-1st.html

Haste neatly begins at the top of page 2.
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Last edited by Whill on Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I browsed that rule when I got my copy of the Rules Companion a few months back, but never really took the time to grok it.

It almost sounds like the D6 version of D20's Attack of Opportunity mechanic...
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nuclearwookiee
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the responses and info, everyone.

I'm wondering if 1e's haste rules couldn't be tweaked and combined with the later editions' initiative rules as a way to perform simultaneous actions. Here's how it could work. Determine initiative according to your preferred method. If you follow 2e R&E pp. 77-78, decide how many sides are in the battle and roll the highest Perception for each side. Then have the players declare how many actions their characters will take in the round. As usual, a character who takes more than one action in a round suffers a -1d multiple action penalty (MAP) for each additional action beyond the first. If a character who takes more than one action in a round wishes to perform two or more of those actions simultaneously, the character also suffers a -1d simultaneous action penalty (SAP) for each additional action performed simultaneously with the first. MAP and SAP are cumulative.

Example 1. A gunslinger wielding two pistols with a Blaster skill of 7d turns a corner and comes face-to-face with a pair of stormtroopers. The PC wins initiative, and his player declares two actions: a blaster shot at each trooper. But not wanting to give either trooper a chance to get a shot off, the gunslinger's player declares that the shots will be simultaneous. The gunslinger will make both attacks at 5d (7d skill -1d MAP for performing two actions and -1d SAP for performing two actions simultaneously), but both attacks will resolve before either stormtrooper gets a chance to shoot back.

Example 2. Let's say the gunslinger, who has a Running skill of 5d, is still worried about being shot at by the troopers. His player instead declares three actions: one shot at each stormtrooper and a movement action to get to cover. But again, the player doesn't want to give the stormtroopers a chance to react before completing these actions. So the gunslinger's player declares that all three actions will be simultaneous--i.e., he will fire both weapons at the same time while running to cover. Both attacks would be rolled at 3d (7d skill -2d MAP for performing three actions and -2d SAP for performing three actions simultaneously), and the gunslinger would roll only 1d for his Running check.

Example 3. For a more complicated example, a Jedi Knight wielding her lightsaber with a Control skill of 6d, a Sense skill of 6d, and a Lightsaber skill of 7d knows that she is about to be attacked by a Sith apprentice, but the Jedi wins initiative and decides to go first. The Jedi wishes to raise Lightsaber Combat (LSC), so her player declares two actions: the Control and Sense rolls required to raise LSC. But wanting to have the power up (to boost her parry roll) before she is attacked on the Sith's turn, the Jedi's player declares that the Control and Sense rolls will be made simultaneously. Both rolls will be rolled at 4d (6d skill -1d MAP for performing two actions and -1d SAP for performing two actions simultaneously). If the Jedi succeeds in raising LSC and then decides to roll her Lightsaber skill to parry on the Sith's turn, her Lightsaber roll to parry will be rolled at 7d (three actions = -2d MAP, two simultaneous actions = -1d SAP; which reduces her Sense skill from 6d to 3d and her Lightsaber skill from 7d to 4d; and adding her Lightsaber skill of 4d and Sense skill of 3d under LSC = 7d).

As these examples demonstrate, this proposed rule can be used to reproduce some combat maneuvers found in other gaming systems, such as dual wielding (examples 1 and 2) and spring attack (example 2). But these examples also demonstrate that the penalties for performing simultaneous actions add up quickly. This rule could be abused only by highly advanced characters when interacting with relatively low-skill adversaries (which imo, isn't the worst thing). And of course, the GM will need to decide which actions can be performed simultaneously.

Thoughts?
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haste Rules as presented were a bit of a headache. I adapted a rule of thumb and modified version of the Haste rules, as well as a few other combat rules.

As a general Rule I never let anyone rush by more D than the Die code of their Dexterity (or Perception in certain cases) as these represent in game terms Physical adeptness and mental acuity respectively. It doesn't matter how good you inevitably become at a given task, the body and mind can only react so fast in a 5 second round.

Similarly, to keep multi-actions from getting way out of hand as Skill Die Codes rise and Force Points are spent - I never let any non-augmented character declare more actions than their Die Code of Dexterity. Again, the body only can move so fast. I normally do not count dice-less free actions against this, but depending on the situation may. Bonus actions from items, modified gear (Hare Trigger, repeaters, etc...) are not counted against this. I also applied this to D6 Modern's rules on Double Tap+ (can not more shots than 1 +Die code of Dex as a single action) to keep the rules from being used abusively... especially considering most automatic handguns rates of fire would not allow some of the fire rates I saw being described for bonus damage in the old WEG forums.
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgot to mention - also with Haste/Hurrying, it only gave the first action the player made advantage over everyone else if rolling higher - and I had the players roll the Haste dice as a unique color and a 1 on any of them was a complication. It may seem harsh, but it definitely made haste a calculated risk and brought it under control. Many a sad time a player was rushing to throw down with his blaster and either caught the weapon on the holster and shot himself in the leg, or dropped the weapon, or fired off a wild shot causing very dramatic and colorful scenery damage. Bad guys too... they were not immune.
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nuclearwookiee
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for your insight, KageRyu. To clarify, my proposed rule would not let a character that loses initiative change his place in the initiative order. If you lose initiative and the other side decides to go first, they will get to act before you do--no matter how much you rush your subsequent actions.

And as you point out, there are some natural barriers to doing too much. One of those is weapon fire rate; most pistols have a rate of only 1 per round. And of course a single weapon can't be in two places at the same time; therefore, even if fire rate isn't an issue, one weapon (except maybe for double weapons like a double-bladed lightsaber) cannot be used to make two simultaneous attacks.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 10:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. I like it.

How would you combine it with the Quick-Draw rules from the HSatCS Sourcebook? Allow the gunman to stack a portion of his Blaster dice with Perception for Initiative?
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Interesting. I like it.

How would you combine it with the Quick-Draw rules from the HSatCS Sourcebook? Allow the gunman to stack a portion of his Blaster dice with Perception for Initiative?

I would need to re-read those rules, but my gut says Yes as that was how I handed Haste/Rushing...sacrifice skill dice (from all skills that turn) for bonus initiative dice.

nuclearwookiee wrote:
Thanks for your insight, KageRyu. To clarify, my proposed rule would not let a character that loses initiative change his place in the initiative order. If you lose initiative and the other side decides to go first, they will get to act before you do--no matter how much you rush your subsequent actions.

This was how I handled it too - Rushing/Haste gave Bonus die code for the initiative rolls at the cost of skill die code, thus increasing the odds of going first, but if someone else still had a higher roll they still went before the character who rushed/used haste.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm leaning more and more to the SAP concept suggested by nuclearwookie. In particular, I like how it very neatly parallels the MAP concept and stacks with it in similar fashion. Plus, the SAP acronym is easily remembered alongside MAP. I don't really see the need for a hard limit on how many actions you can take; your skill dice takes enough of a hit when stacking MAPs and SAPs to do that just as effectively.

As far as the Quick-Draw rules, I'd suggest a modification of the Dice Pool rule used in the RAW, with whatever dice the character chooses to allocate to Initiative being stacked with Perception, as opposed to being rolled on their own. The remaining dice in Blaster would be used for the shot accuracy, subject to MAPs and SAPs as appropriate.

I do need to consider how the SAP concept would integrate with dual-wielding weapons, though...
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nuclearwookiee
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
How would you combine it with the Quick-Draw rules from the HSatCS Sourcebook? Allow the gunman to stack a portion of his Blaster dice with Perception for Initiative?

That's a good question, CRMcNeill. I think the SAP rule could be combined with HSatCS's "Speed Drawing" rule. Speed drawing with two blasters would basically give the dual-wielding gunslinger two speed rolls compared to a single-wielding opponent's one speed roll. Of course, the dual-wielder would suffer a -1d MAP and -1d SAP for the round, which under the HSatCS rule, would apply to both the speed and accuracy rolls.

Let's use the example stats from HSatCS p. 122, but give Gallandro two pistols: Han Solo with a heavy blaster pistol and a Blaster skill of 8d versus Gallandro with two pistols and a Blaster skill of 13d. Both declare they will speed draw against the other. Han declares one shot; Gallandro declares two simultaneous shots--one from each pistol. Han allocates 5d to his speed roll and 3d to accuracy. Gallandro allocates 8d to speed and 5d to accuracy. Because Gallandro is making two simultaneous shots, his rolls are at -1d MAP and -1d SAP. So Han will roll one shot at 5d speed and 3d accuracy, while Gallandro will roll two shots at 6d speed and 3d accuracy, giving Gallandro two chances to draw faster than Han. Even if Han declares two shots, because he only has one pistol, his second shot could not be resolved until his first shot and both of Gallandro's shots are resolved.

The SAP rule alone lets you pull off another type of quick draw common to RPGs. Without using HSatCS's speed-drawing rule, you can still use the SAP rule to draw a weapon from a holster (first action) and simultaneously shoot (second action) at -1d MAP and -1d SAP. Quickdraw holsters that add to a character's Blaster skill (see HSatCS pp. 121-22, stating that quickdraw holsters add +1 to +2d to Blaster skill when quickdrawing) could simply be used as written to offset these MAP and SAP penalties. The speed component would just be the initiative roll.

As an aside, rereading HSatCS's speed-drawing rule has me a little confused. The first printing of HSatCS (November 1993) postdates 2e's first printing (October 1992). But the text of the "Speed Drawing" rule (HSatCS p. 122) refers to the way actions were resolved in 1e--not in 2e and beyond. HSatCS's speed-drawing rule says: "Unlike normal rounds, quickdraw duel actions are not simultaneous. The character who fires first, fires first in 'game time': the other character may only fire back if they haven't been injured by the shots at them." (Emphasis added.) Contrary to the first sentence's implication that actions normally occur simultaneously--which was true in 1e--actions in a normal round under 2e R&E pp. 77-78 already explicitly occur sequentially: "Each action occurs as it is rolled--a split-second after any actions that have already been rolled and a split-second before the next action that's rolled." So it appears that the speed-drawing rule itself was designed for 1e's haste system and not 2e's initiative system.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A thought on the SAP concept; perhaps a better title would be Concurrent Action Penalty, or CAP. They have the same meaning, but concurrent is only three syllables to simultaneous’ five, so it flows off the tongue more easily.
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nuclearwookiee
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
A thought on the SAP concept; perhaps a better title would be Concurrent Action Penalty, or CAP. They have the same meaning, but concurrent is only three syllables to simultaneous’ five, so it flows off the tongue more easily.

Yeah, I think I do like concurrent better.
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