The Rancor Pit Forum Index
Welcome to The Rancor Pit forums!

The Rancor Pit Forum Index
FAQ   ::   Search   ::   Memberlist   ::   Usergroups   ::   Register   ::   Profile   ::   Log in to check your private messages   ::   Log in

Masquerade Force Power
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Gamemasters -> Masquerade Force Power Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree.

I wonder if there's a better description of the power in the D20 sourcebook that the power was converted from. I sadly do not have that book.
_________________
RR
________________________________________________________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
I agree.

I wonder if there's a better description of the power in the D20 sourcebook that the power was converted from. I sadly do not have that book.

Do you recall which sourcebook it was?
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Jedi Academy Training Manual: Page 15
_________________
RR
________________________________________________________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raven Redstar wrote:
The Jedi Academy Training Manual: Page 15

Okay, so it does specifically say "this is a mind affecting effect" under the base Illusion talent. That being said, I don't consider a statement from WOTC Saga to be binding when trying to flesh out a WEG concept, especially when the WEG concept of Illusions specifically states that it doesn't actually affect the mind.
Quote:
Suffice it to say that these powers [Illusion] somehow manipulate the senses as opposed to the mind (which is covered under the Mind discipline).
-Tales of the Jedi Companion, Pg. 83, last sentence of the Illusion sub-discipline.

_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I checked The Dark Side Sourcebook, since it was also listed as a source for the Illusion prerequisite.

Quote:
You are able to manifest phantasmal images that seem completely real to those who perceive them.


A little bit later:
Quote:
Each person who perceives the illusion perceives the same event (instead of his or her own slightly different interpretation).


Here they mention the relation to Affect Mind:
Quote:
Creating illusions does not in and of itself give the user a Dark Side Point. In fact, the Jedi ability Affect Mind draws from a similar tradition.


Here is an interesting mention in a sidebar:
Quote:
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but does not dispel the illusion. For example, a character who makes a successful saving throw against an illusion of a massive starship knows that the starship isn't really there, but cannot actually see the smaller starships hidden inside.

_________________
RR
________________________________________________________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, as I said above, it's going to come down to personal preference. Personally I think the Illusions sub-set needs to be fleshed out separately from Affect Mind, but the people who write this stuff appear to disagree. IMO, an illusion is distinct from using Jedi Mind Trick to tell the stormtrooper, "No, I'm Captain Obvious, and I'm authorized to be here."
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Well, as I said above, it's going to come down to personal preference. Personally I think the Illusions sub-set needs to be fleshed out separately from Affect Mind, but the people who write this stuff appear to disagree. IMO, an illusion is distinct from using Jedi Mind Trick to tell the stormtrooper, "No, I'm Captain Obvious, and I'm authorized to be here."


I agree. Especially since it summons an apparition that even if the person knows its fake, still sees it until it's dispelled by the conjurer.
_________________
RR
________________________________________________________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Phalanks Balas
Lieutenant Commander
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 05 Jul 2005
Posts: 175
Location: Paris - France

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
Well, as I said above, it's going to come down to personal preference. Personally I think the Illusions sub-set needs to be fleshed out separately from Affect Mind, but the people who write this stuff appear to disagree. IMO, an illusion is distinct from using Jedi Mind Trick to tell the stormtrooper, "No, I'm Captain Obvious, and I'm authorized to be here."

I agree to. It's a visual effect not a psychic one. Thus a perception roll can be done to see it's an illusion (hologramme hiding something).
_________________
Phalanks

A day you will be facing the guns of the Black Pearl. You will know what means damned pirates !
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd argue it goes beyond just visual. Doppelganger doesn't just look real, it feels real, too. TLJ went even further by creating an inanimate object (the dice) that could be held and not identified as fake.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14021
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just because one power (doppleganger) is more physical, than mental, does NOT mean the other "illusion" like powers, are the same way.
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
Just because one power (doppleganger) is more physical, than mental, does NOT mean the other "illusion" like powers, are the same way.

And yet, Doppelganger makes it clear that the capability is there. And if the goal is a disguise that can stand up to physical inspection (touch), it would need it.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Whill
Dark Lord of the Jedi (Owner/Admin)


Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 10286
Location: Columbus, Ohio, USA, Earth, The Solar System, The Milky Way Galaxy

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
I'd argue it goes beyond just visual. Doppelganger doesn't just look real, it feels real, too. TLJ went even further by creating an inanimate object (the dice) that could be held and not identified as fake.

I do agree it is a physical illusion and not affecting minds (Threepio did clearly see Luke's doppelganger), but I'm not so sure that the dice were not identified as fake. The way Leia looked up at Luke when he handed them to her, I think that may have been when she realized that Luke (and the dice) weren't actually there. So it may be relatively easier to fool someone with visual effects than tactile effects.
_________________
*
Site Map
Forum Guidelines
Registration/Log-In Help
The Rancor Pit Library
Star Wars D6 Damage
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Sovereign Protector


Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14021
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Just because one power (doppleganger) is more physical, than mental, does NOT mean the other "illusion" like powers, are the same way.

And yet, Doppelganger makes it clear that the capability is there. And if the goal is a disguise that can stand up to physical inspection (touch), it would need it.


I still see the doppleganger power, more as a Physical manifestation, not a mental thing, where illusion is purely mental.
But like always, it seems no matter what i say CRM, your mind's made up...
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Director of Engineering


Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16163
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
garhkal wrote:
Just because one power (doppleganger) is more physical, than mental, does NOT mean the other "illusion" like powers, are the same way.

And yet, Doppelganger makes it clear that the capability is there. And if the goal is a disguise that can stand up to physical inspection (touch), it would need it.


I still see the doppleganger power, more as a Physical manifestation, not a mental thing, where illusion is purely mental.
But like always, it seems no matter what i say CRM, your mind's made up...

Uh... wut?

My point was that Masquerade / Force Disguise - the main power we are discussing here, would need to be more than just a visual disguise. If, for instance, a character were disguising himself as a Gamorrean, it would look awfully strange if someone tripped and fell partially into him rather than bouncing off.

Where exactly did I say that Doppelganger was a mental thing? I seem to have missed it.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.

The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Raven Redstar
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral


Joined: 10 Mar 2009
Posts: 2648
Location: Salem, OR

PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whill wrote:
CRMcNeill wrote:
I'd argue it goes beyond just visual. Doppelganger doesn't just look real, it feels real, too. TLJ went even further by creating an inanimate object (the dice) that could be held and not identified as fake.

I do agree it is a physical illusion and not affecting minds (Threepio did clearly see Luke's doppelganger), but I'm not so sure that the dice were not identified as fake. The way Leia looked up at Luke when he handed them to her, I think that may have been when she realized that Luke (and the dice) weren't actually there. So it may be relatively easier to fool someone with visual effects than tactile effects.


It's possible that Leia was skilled enough at that point to recognize the illusion, she may have decided to keep her mouth shut because Luke being there would improve morale which was pretty shaken by that point. She realized without him saying a word that he was going to buy them time to escape.

Without getting off topic too much, my wife's theory is that Luke actually projected his soul or his own Force Ghost across the galaxy, and in being separated for as long as he did, was what caused him to die in the end. I thought it was a pretty insightful theory.
_________________
RR
________________________________________________________________


Last edited by Raven Redstar on Wed Aug 22, 2018 2:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Rancor Pit Forum Index -> Gamemasters All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 2 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group


v2.0