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Eliminating the Damage Roll
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jmanski
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Armor and dexterity penalties.....
Football players wear armor- how penalized are they?
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Endwyn
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Football gear only covers certain areas and does have it's down sides. But it is not comparable to wearing an armor suit. There is a difference in weight, areas the body covered, and range of motion. I understand where your going, but if your gonna compare football gear to star wars armor, then compare it to a blast vest and helmet; that's it's closest equivalent.
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Hellcat
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Endwyn wrote:
if your gonna compare football gear to star wars armor, then compare it to a blast vest and helmet; that's it's closest equivalent.


Since there is sports gear for stuff in SW, I think football gear would be compared to that rather than a blast vest and helmet. The flak jacket and helmet seem more comparable to blast vest and helmet.
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Endwyn
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you Hellcat, just trying to move towards a better representation of football gear than full armor. I agree their not the same.
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Allst Beamem
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As far as the armor thing goes,

When you point a blaster at some one set on KILL your intention is to kill the target. So wen the difficulty for point blank is very easy that means that it is very easy to kill the target.

I dont see the armor rule above as making it harder to to hit the target, I see it makeing it harder to kill him.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slight clarification, sabre. The nock out from 'dazed' is equal to or greater than the D of str....
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KageRyu
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I recall the various Star Wars rules editions provide a few methods of handling the "Hit but no wounds" result. I have always prefered the first edition method of it, where if you are hit you are at least stunned, unless your STRENGTH roll is twice the damage roll. The common recomendation in the various star wars books is to say it was a grazing shot, or it hits a piece of equipment. Also keep in mind that Star Wars is sci-fi and has a number of non-human entities that are fairly durable, and in the trilogy can withstand numerous blaster hits (Chewbacca) with seemingly little effect on them. So an "Always wounded if hit" would not reflect such beings well. Granted, it can be troublesome to have a hit on an unarmored human result in not even a stun (especially common in 2nd edition and 2nd R&E) but it is all how you explain the hit. One of the key differences in 2nd over 1st was that 2nd made it harder to wound initially, but easier to kill if wounded, where in first, if you hit you are almost always at least dazing your target (and that was described in the rules as a grazing or glancing shot usually).
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Endwyn
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree. The rules are designed to be cinematic, how many times is someone hit in a movie to only get a scratch? Or the crazy moments where a character gets hit, flys back, and ends up only wounded because say......the bullet hit the prune in his shirt pocket.....but perhaps he still broke a rib.
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Grimace
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Sabre, I wasn't able to find the bit, or remember, from our previous discussion on this topic, but reading over it, I think I might have something somewhat similar that might be able to address the heavier weapons AND the armor issue.

Mind you, I'm still not a fan of the system in general, as I don't like to have the roll taken away from me to resist, but you know me...always tweaking things and trying to help. Wink

So, for armor:
If a person is wearing armor, and the armor is heavy enough to warrant a dexterity penalty, apply the penalty to Dodge, and roll to see if hit/damage. If hit, the armor would then provide one of two things; either automatic negation of a number of wound levels, OR a set number that gets automatically deducted from the amount the shot exceeded the dodge by.

Examples: Bob shoots a Stormtrooper. Bob has 4D in Blaster, the trooper has 2D and suffers a -1D to Dex due to the armor he wears. Bob rolls 14, trooper rolls 1D and gets a 2. Bob is 12 more, which would result in Mortally Wounded. However the armor is resistant to energy to some degree. You could say it lessens the damage by 1 level, which would then leave the trooper at Incapacitated. OR you could say that the armor provides a 6 point reduction, (6 points per Die or some such) and then the 12 would become a 6, which would result in the trooper being Wounded Twice.

Due to the fact that stormtrooper armor is pretty buff, you could say that it provided 1 level protection against energy and 2 levels of protection against physical attacks.

Depending on which you went with, you could either have a wide variety of armor, or just a couple of models. Obviously with the level deduction, you will have less variance, but it will be easier. If you go with point reduction, you can have much more variance. A blast vest could provide 3 point reduction from damage. A heavy riot vest could provide 5 points, stormtrooper armor could provide 6/12, bounty hunter armor could be a hefty 12 point reduction from damage.

As long as you have the armor reduce from DAMAGE, and put the minimum deduction at 0 (stunned/deflected) you won't have the problem of the person "hitting" and then actually "missing" because the armor is too buff. You still hit, you just hit the armor and the armor protects the guy well or not.

As far as the weapons, you could do like what you did for STR, and simply put in wound level modifiers depending on the damage of the weapon. So if the weapon was 1-2D, no modifier. If it was 2D+1 to 4D, add a +1 to wound level, 4D+1 to 6D, add a +2 to wound level....and so on. Same can work for hand held weapons, or ranged weapons, whatever.

Hope this helps.
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Esjs
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just had a thought about the "hit but no damage" situation. Would you consider the possibility that the blaster bolt itself was just weak? I mean, if damage is going to be variable, then you're gonna get some weak shots. So you get hit dead on, but it feels like a snowball or Nerf ball hit you (or maybe it felt like a pinch). You say "ow" and go on.

To me, "grazing shots" are when the to-hit roll is almost (off-by-one?) equal to the to-hit difficulty.

I'm sure this may not be acceptable for a lot of people... having blaster bolts occasionally being nothing more than Nerf darts in energy form, but it at least explains the rolls.

There's a "Nerf herder" joke around here somewhere. I can just smell it.

*Edit*
Just thought about melee (knife attack)... but damage is usually based on STR. Still even if Weak Dude gets a solid hit with a knife on Strong Dude, some skin should be broken.
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Sabre
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the input, Grimace. It did end up as a different system than before, though. Hope you liked the improvements.

That's a possibility, Esjs, but it's not just blasters and knives. Lightsabers, firearms, explosives (thermal detonators!), flamethrowers, falling rocks, being on a crashing ship... anything that can cause damage is subject to the 'dead on hit but no damage' conundrum. I really like to think of the damage a thing inflicts when it hits something as being mostly standard. Consider modern firearms and ballistics tests. There would be no point to such tests if the damage weren't reasonably similar in each instance of a firearm discharge. But on the contrary, a lot can be learned from such tests. Firearms exist in the Star Wars universe, so why would anyone choose a blaster which fires nerf shots at unpredictable intervals over a firearms pistol? I really don't consider this a fatal flaw for the system. As a lot of people have mentioned, it's heroic space opera and not the real world. I've used resistance rolls in all my D6 games (in fact, I've never NOT used resistance rolls, I mentioned this isn't tested yet). I just thought it might be an interesting way of handling it differently that avoids the above criticisms, speeds up combat, and produces other desirable effects in the process.
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Esjs
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sabre wrote:
I just thought it might be an interesting way of handling it differently that avoids the above criticisms, speeds up combat, and produces other desirable effects in the process.


Which is why I consider it a valid set of optional rules... Smile
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What about making a rule that for each 'X' over the dodge roll a person hits with, it has a minimum damage level it causes, regardless of the Str-damage roll?

Like say for every bracket of 7 is one wound..

0-6 stun minimum from damage
7-13 wound
14-20 wound twice
21-27 incap
28+ mortally wounded.
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Endwyn
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2005 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why change the damage chart? If you want to make exceptional hits do more damage, sit down with a friend and roll out a couple rounds of combat. See what happens when you add 1 point to the damage roll for every point over the target "to hit" number, for every 2, 3, 4, 5, ect. Find the part that works for you. The new west end stuff recomends 1 extra point of damage for every 5 full points over the to hit roll.
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