| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Kehlin Yew
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 07 Jun 2005
Posts: 223
Location: America
|
 Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:36 am Post subject: Re: DSPs |
 |
|
| entropy wrote: |
6. I don't give DSPs for killing animals unless there are unusual circumstances. Jedi should be allowed to hunt for sport if they want to, it's not evil. |
Say one of the rules of this game animal is not to kill the Bull, pregnant female, or deh wittle babies.. and they do? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
entropy
Lieutenant
Joined: 13 Jul 2005
Posts: 81
Location: Wisconsin
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:55 am Post subject: DSP for killing a cute, cuddly, baby rancor. |
|
|
| Quote: |
6. I don't give DSPs for killing animals unless there are unusual circumstances. Jedi should be allowed to hunt for sport if they want to, it's not evil.
Say one of the rules of this game animal is not to kill the Bull, pregnant female, or deh wittle babies.. and they do?
|
Send the Imperial DNR after them... 
Obviously it depends on the circumstances, but I would be reluctant to give out a DSP. If a jedi is attempting genocide or even just going around hacking up all the animals he can find for the fun of it, I would consider that an "unusual circumstance." Otherwise, it's probably a legal matter, not a moral matter. What if a baby rancor is running around town, eating people?
Of course.. I'd hate to be the PC that kills Fluffy's baby. That will end you up in more trouble than even the dark side has to offer. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sabre
Lieutenant
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
Posts: 80
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | At this time, i will say somehting on that situation. The moff the base commander works for, regards honor highly, and rarely breaks his word (life in danger would be one reason). Many of his underlings are of the same way, though some still are 'typical' imps (along the lines listed here)...
Would that make any difference? |
It doesn't make a difference. The players might not know his behavior trends, and any doubts they have about trusting the Empire even knowing this one is generally honorable are still well-grounded in reason. If the officer in question is so honorable, why demand the enemy's surrender? Why not offer to let them withdraw so that both sides can tend their wounded? If he's so honorable, why not help the enemy wounded anyway?
Endwyn, you're still underestimating the Empire. The people who climb the rank ladders within the Empire are bound to be better at manipulating and scheming than average, they'll know what the characters are up to and they'll do something to counter that. Once the players surrender, they've given up all of their power and put themselves at the mercy of people who want to do them harm. They don't have anything to bargain with because the empire will take any information from them with torture and mind probes. Even if the person is an honorable type as described by garhkal, he'll want that information to save as many Imperial troops as possible, and he won't be partial to waiting for it.
Death is important. It's the fear of loss that Yoda is warning against. He's saying that if Anakin or Luke for that matter lets fear guide his actions, he will create a worse situation/"You will destroy all for which they have fought and suffered." The Jedi is still prohibited from inflicting harm on others, and still obligated to protect the innocent, but in this situation there's a miniscule chance the wounded might be saved but a large chance that the situation could become worse.
The situation you describe with Luke/Vader is like the situation we're discussing. Luke hasn't been captured at this point, nor has he surrendered. He's at a point where he can't win, and his friends are still in danger somewhere on Cloud City with Han completely helpless and possibly barely alive frozen in Carbonite. Yet Luke doesn't surrender to Vader, he choses to flee. He can't save Han at that time, nor can he help his other friends. Surrender to the Empire would produce a situation worse than the one he's in.
Also from ESB, the battle of Hoth: Some of the rebel soldiers who went down on Hoth might have been just mortally wounded. If the Imperial commanders had offered the rebels still on the planet (Including Luke and Leia who were among the last to leave) a chance to surrender to save them, but they left anyway, would they get DSPs? Does the chance to surrender even matter here, since they left behind people who might not have been dead yet?
The situation you describe with the cop and the 8 hostages is different from here. The Empire isn't releasing anyone. Furthermore, the cop isn't surrendering in quite the same way, and there are probably a few hundred other cops already on the scene with guns on the hostage taker. The thing about Martyrs is... they're all dead. It's a good bet that this situation turns out the same for the ones who surrender, you're right, but how does that help? Why get a DSP for not having it end up that way? Surrendering to the people who shot your friends isn't heroic either. Especially when you have reason to believe it won't help your friends, and will likely result in your own (and your remaining freinds') death as well.[/img] |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Endwyn
Commander
Joined: 22 Jul 2005
Posts: 481
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 12:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
And if Han hadn't come back for Luke at the Death Star he would have been gunned down by Vader and the Death Star wouldn't have been destroyed.
I understand where your coming from, I don't like the idea of putting a character into a position they have to chose, but those moments do arise. When they do the Jedi does have to chose.
Your point of what if all the empire wants is the Jedi would be a great conundrum. If all they want is to kill the Jedi, his friends fate doens't change with his surrender. If there is no way to help his friends, so be it. No action can change that fate. If their deaths are part of a greater cause, then no DSP. But I'm talking about truely important, not the "well, we're part of the rebellion, and they need me" stuff.
As for Lando, no - Forse Sensitive and Jedi are on two completly different scales. I know from everyone elses response that they don't differentiate, but I do; and with good reason. If yu don't do that, then you would treat the Jedi like I would a FS.
_________________
Luke, I am your father.
That's impossible!
And Leia is your sister!
That's improbable?
And the Empire will be destroyed by..EWOKS!
That's...highly unlikely.
The Force? Bacteria called midichlorians.
If you don’t take this seriously I'm out. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:22 pm Post subject: Re: A whole slew of them... |
|
|
| Quote: | The rebel (or even fringer, BUT NOT imperial aligned) Party is making a raid on the imps. They split up into 2 packs of 3, (left and right flank). 2 of the members on the left (or right, does not matter) make one of their hit and fade attacks, but actually get whammped on, with 1 dying, and the other 2 getting knocked out AND bleeding (eg for D6 mortally wounded). The other group either sees or hears this, but is too far away to help at this time.
The Imperials (or what ever bad guy group, comes over the comlink/loudspeaker and makes it known to the rest of the rebs that if they give themselves up Immediately, then they guarantee medical treatment for their fallen comrades. They either refuse or flat out flee, which condemns the MW comrades to death. |
This one was already asked in another thread, and answered at length. This is a really unnescessary repost of that question.
| Quote: | (not mine, first one)
Recently in a D20 SW:RPG game I was playing my character a level 4 soldier/ level 2 Jedi Guardian was on a mission. During that mission the GM saw to it that I got.. not 1.. not 2.. but 8 Dark Side points... (DSP = Dark Side Points)
His logic:
1. I sealed 3 people in a steel crate with my lightsaber after I had knocked them out with a stun grenade...
= 3 DSP, they did not have any air and died.
2. Entering a facility, I opened a door to find an enemy communications center with 4 technicians right at the console. Panicked I ran to them with 2 light sabers ignited, but that was the end of my action.. On their action they turned to face me but did not surrender. Fearing they were going to hit an alarm, I killed all 4 with my lightsaber.
= 5 DSP.. 1 for each kill = 4 + 1 for the carnage. |
Level 2...level 4...carry the one...roll thac0...bah! You recieve a dark side point for even playing the D20 version! Shame on you! Yes, the steel crate would be a DSP. On the comm center I woul dneed to know more about the context, as believing they were hitting an alarm was reasonable, and you were in an enemy facility (why becomes an important question to me, as it would determine my ruling on DSP). Either way, though, in WEG you generally get 1 per act or scene, so it would have been 2 at maximum (not 8), plus 1 for playing D20.
| Quote: | (next of mine)
Party is split into 3 groups, 4 on one ship, 2 on another and 5 on the third.
Those on ship 3, somehow get a Dark Jedi on board (using the force to travel there… a home made force power). He is whopping up on them good, when the pilot of that ship calls to the other 2 ships, to destroy his (hoping it will also kill the DJ).
Will the gunners on the other ship get a DSP for killing the other occupants on that ship? |
Judgement call on the GM's part. As this could be a heroic sacrifice on the part of the crew of the ship taking fire (Dark Jedi's are very hard to stop after all...and realizing they are all probably dead anyway, they lay down their lives hoping he will also die). There are so many varriables that can affect this ruling that you do not explain...which makes it hard. If the ships were military, and the order was given, no, the gunners do not receive a dark side point.
| Quote: | (not mine)
Say Joe Jedi is fighting evil bob. The fight moves into a city, and evil bob takes up position inside someone’s house. Joe Jedi, is now out of force points, so calls on the dark side, and hurls in fire/explosives/thermal detonators (etc), KNOWING that innocents inside will die. But when questioned, he simply responds "well if they did not wish to die, they should not have let in the bad guy" OR "if they did not wish to die, they should have vacated their house"...
Now, besides the DSP for calling on the dark side, would he get another for the deaths of innocents?
More than one?? |
He would absolutely get a second DSP for his evil action and disregard for the lives and safety of the innocents. The action of calling on the dark side is always a gauranteed DSP, and is seperate from any other actions performed... In fact, i might have given 3 (1 for trusting to the dark side to gain a force point, 1 for spending the force point in the commission of an evil act, and a third for the evil act itself).
| Quote: | (not mine, but a good one)
PC’s are breaking into a speeder sales lot to steal an astromech Droid. The R2 unit is borderline stolen property – some swoopers found it in an abandoned warehouse and took it, selling it to the owner of the speeder lot. They didn’t know the Droid belonged to the PC’s contact that had gone missing.
Anyway, the Jedi uses his Handle Animal skill (enhanced with force abilities) to distract the equivalent of guard dogs, luring them to the other end of the lot. The other PC’s cut through the fence and try to break into the shed to free the Droid.
Now, there’s a mouse Droid patrolling the lot that spots this going on and signals the guard dogs to come running. The Jedi, seeing the game is up, races back to help. Battle ensues. One of the guard dogs is pretty badly mauling a PC Droid (out of vitality and down to wounds) when the Jedi gets there. The Jedi charges forward and kills the dog.
Now, I didn’t give a DSP, my reasoning being the Jedi was acting to defend an ally. There didn’t appear to be any alternative – the dog was going to continue attacking the Droid until it was destroyed unless he killed it.
I think it was borderline, though. First, he was acting with aggression by charging (“Anger, Fear, Aggression, the Dark Side are they” as Yoda said). Second, he was killing a living creature (part of the Force) to protect a non-living entity (not part of the Force). Third, the Jedi came from a pacifist society that abhors violence.
What do people think? I issued a warning to the Jedi that the behavior was borderline. |
I think this is really splitting hairs. Stealing is not always inately evil or greedy. If done for no other purpose than to promote greed, yes it is borderline and should be walking the dark path. Why did they need the droid? Whose droid was it prior? You said the gang stole it from the PCs contact right? I'm not certain this even is noteable for a warning about DSP, depending on why the PCs needed to steal the droid. Were they stealing it out of greed, or were they stealing it out of nescessity?
| Quote: | | Also, what about the theft of the Droid? Isn’t theft a product of greed, and greed is a dark side emotion? |
No, theft is not always a product of greed. Sometimes it is a product of nescessity. The reason why the were stealing would be one of the deciding factors.
| Quote: | (mine)
Terrorist/bad-guy/bounty hunter holding hostage, with a heavily modified heavy blaster pistol/sawn off shot gun WHAT EVER! to hostages head. Party tries to do something. Gets to a 'stalemate', when one of the party, who is either a low powered Jedi or just someone force sensitive, tries something, which forces the BG to shoot and kill the hostage.
Checking out the situation, further, they find out the hostage was a pregnant woman with triplets, and that the BG WOULD Have surrendered, if negotiated with. SO the hostage need not have died... |
Is he a Jedi or a Force Sensitive? What did he try? Did they have any reason to believe the bad guy would have surrendered? You said they reached a stalemate, so they tried other options that failed already right? What exactly are you asking, more details please.
| Quote: | (again not mine)
The group were trying to liberate Wookie slaves from a small Imperial research station. Things were going badly, in the end only the Jedi was standing. However things weren’t hot for the Imperials either, they were stuck in their base with their communication equipment down and their Storm trooper detachment wiped out.
The officer charged out and tried to deal with the Jedi, he was clearly failing and raised his hands. He made an offer, if the Jedi didn’t leave now all the Wookie captives would be killed. The Jedi, under the impression that the Imperial had to give some form of order or activate a device to kill the captives, leapt forward and killed him with a single swing of his saber.
This is killing a surrendered opponent in cold blood that would normally be rewarded with a DSP.
However the player was trying to save the Wookies (as it happened he didn’t, the Imperial Doctor in the base was watching and killed them herself). He didn’t just charge in there and kill him, his thought process (said out loud) was that it was usually wrong to kill the Imperial but that he had to do it to save the captives. He deliberated and then choose his course of action. |
He wasn't killing in cold blood, and I wouldn't say the Imperial was surrendered either. The imperial was abusing the "white flag" by using it to issue an ultimatum to the Jedi that would result in the death of countless wookies...which would most likely be the result if the the Jedi left anyways...a slower death in slave camps at that. I am not so certian a DSP is needed, but it is a situation where one could argue either way.
I am starting to see a reocouring pattern in thes...whoever is setting thes up is setting them up to make the party fail either way. That being the case, I am done answering DSP questions.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14031
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
kage. THanks for your input. if you look at the posting for each 'quote' you would see which are mine and which are not. I got all these from the holonet, by going throught all the dsp threads there.
Now that is done. On to how i ruled for mine (and some clarification on your question)..
The imp raid (mine). Has not yet happened (and the duplication of it, was for 2 seperate questions, one on the survivability, and this one for the dsp issue).
As it has not happened, i was looking at what would be reasonable for dsps....
Next, the ship gunners. This did happen (last years gencon). The gm running it, viewed the killing of fellow PCs as a dark act period, unless we asked. While at first, i did not agree, after the fact, i did. But being we all, in the end, got on the comm, repeating the ships captains orders, there was none given.
Terrorist hostage situ. Happened way back in the mid 90s. BG was more of a underworld figure, not the 'evil overlord' type. They had already decimated his holdings, and most of his crime group structure. I had stated twice in the past, if cornered he would give up the crime ways, but only if he could leave with his ship.... Since i had that put out on the table, i assumed that they would negotiate for the hostage and let him flee (possibily making a future nemesis), but rather than that, one took the 'quick way; and tried to shoot him. I awarded a DSP, and the player took it willingly....
jedi and bounty hunter... well it was stated my feelings here when i posted it.
Same with the last one..... When i told him he would get at least 2 possibily more (after i confered with other gms), he still decided to go ahead with it. After wards, when quizzing the other gms, they went with 3.... He still was willing to take it though it did not really matter, as he was not going to be playing with us at any future cons (was moving to austraila with his new wife)...
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jedi Skyler
Moff
Joined: 07 Sep 2005
Posts: 8440
|
| Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 2:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote]Consider the stormtroopers killing Owen and Beru on Tatooine for possession of stolen droids. They were officers of the law enforcing law. Do you condone always following the law?
Now, here's where we get into a "certain point of view" issue on what's "the law" and what isn't. Sure, technically, the stormtroopers were tracking down what had been reported as stolen droids, or at least droids Wanted by the Empire. They had every legal right to interrogate the Jawas and Owen & Beru. HOWEVER: There's jail time and such for receiving stolen property. There's no reason to kill off a whole sandcrawler (or a couple of moisture farmers) for having "stolen property." Anyone truly enforcing even the letter of the law would have to recognize that at least the Lars' could be considered unwilling patsies in the extreme, were this simply a case of stolen property. HOWEVER, since the droids in question were suspected of carrying top-secret data, the troopers eradicated anyone who had knowledge of them. That speaks more of cover-up than it does law enforcement. I mean, there's always the spice mines of Kessel! So were the stormtroopers really following the "law," or were they going way beyond the normal purview of the law? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Jedi Skyler wrote: | | They had every legal right to interrogate the Jawas and Owen & Beru. HOWEVER: There's jail time and such for receiving stolen property. There's no reason to kill off a whole sandcrawler (or a couple of moisture farmers) for having "stolen property." |
There is when that stolen property is believed to contain classified military documents the mere possesion of which is the highest form of treason.
| Quote: | | Anyone truly enforcing even the letter of the law would have to recognize that at least the Lars' could be considered unwilling patsies in the extreme, were this simply a case of stolen property. |
When lord Vader says "retrieve those droids at all costs" you retrieve those droids at all costs. You do not question the orders of the dark lord of the sith and expect to have a future career as anything except maybe Bantha Food. Not too mention, we are talking Imperial law, which is harsh and unforgiving, not the laws as might be found in the US. So I guess, a good question becomes, do you condone always following the law if the law is particularly cruel and unjust?
| Quote: | | So were the stormtroopers really following the "law," or were they going way beyond the normal purview of the law? |
Given that Imperial law gives Stormtroopers Absolute Authority, then, yes, they were following the law. Imperial Moffs can change the local laws to suite their whim, as long as it doesn't interfere with the Imperium itself or contradict Palpatine's grand scheme. If the imperial Govenor or Liason (in this case Vader) issues a decree to execute all who come into contact with those droids, it becomes law. This structure of the empire is described at length in the Imperial Sourcebook, and many other places.
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
garhkal
Sovereign Protector
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 14031
Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well said kage...
Here is another one...
Planet OUTSIDE imperial space, and not even known (at this time) to the imperials..
Pcs commit a crime, what we would call a capital offence/felany (eg Armed back robbery, murder, assaulting a cop). Should they be given DSPs if they kill any security/cops that come after them??
_________________
Confucious sayeth, don't wash cat while drunk! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Argamoth
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 234
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
If it's cold-blooded murdur, yes.
If the PCs are force-sensitive, yes.
Unless there are any circumstances that might dictate otherwise. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KageRyu
Commodore
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 1391
Location: Lost in the cracks
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| garhkal wrote: | | Pcs commit a crime, what we would call a capital offence/felany (eg Armed back robbery, murder, assaulting a cop). Should they be given DSPs if they kill any security/cops that come after them?? |
Barring extremely mitigating circumstances...
Absofragginlutely. The pcs created the situation by committing the crimes in the first place, and worsened it by going on a "killing spree". The PCs. of course, will justify it with "They were shooting at us"...which just doesn't cut it in this case (in my Fall of the Republic campaign this situation began to play itself out...one of the PCs killed a security guard while breaking in to a droid manufacturing center).
_________________
"There's a set way to gain new Force Points and it represents a very nice system, where you're rewarded for heroism, not for being a poor conductor to electricity." ~Jachra |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
