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Force Jump
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Kilgore
Sub-Lieutenant
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Joined: 19 Apr 2006
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Location: The Kamino Cloning facilities.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FORCE JUMP

A power that has been missing from the WEG Rules since the beginning.
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Gry Sarth
Jedi


Joined: 25 May 2004
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Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I take it you liked my homebrew power, then?

Has anyone used it in-game? If so, I'd like to know how it went. When I playtested it my player was very satisfied.
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Kilgore
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Location: The Kamino Cloning facilities.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 19, 2006 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've only used it in one campaign. I was a Jedi and used the power to get from a rooftop to the top of a starship. The ship was still parked in a spacedock like the one in Mos Eisley.

I think the FORCE JUMP power works fine. Just like any other power it works fine as long as people don't use it unnecesarilly.

In the campaign I run, I have a rule that using the Force to much or when it serves no purpose but showing of attracts the Dark Side.
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cheshire
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Joined: 04 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Force Jump

Control difficulty ... Height jumped
Very Easy ............. 1m
Easy ..................... 2m
Moderate ............... 4m
Difficult ................. 8m
Very Difficult ......... 16m
Heroic .................. 24m
Add 5 to the difficulty for every additional 8 meters.

Modifier ... Distance jumped
+1 ............ 2m
+5 ............ 4m
+10 .......... 8m
+15 ......... 16m
+20 ......... 24m
+25 ......... 32m
Add 5 to the difficulty for every additional 8 meters.


Alter Difficulty ... Height jumped
Very Easy ............. 4m
Easy ..................... 8m
Moderate .............. 16m
Difficult ................. 24m
Very Difficult ......... 32m
Heroic ................... 40m
Add 5 to the difficulty for every additional 8 meters.

Modifier ... Distance jumped
+1 ........... 8m
+5 ........... 16m
+10 ......... 24m
+15 ......... 32m
+20 ......... 40m
+25 ......... 48m
Add 5 to the difficulty for every additional 8 meters.

Required Powers: Enhance attribute, telekinesis

Time to Use: One round

Effect: This power allows the Jedi to jump over great distances in any direction. Both Force Skill rolls must be made in the same round, therefore incurring normal multiple action penalties. The Control roll is made at the beginning of the jump, with the difficulty depending on the jump trajectory (jumping downwards has a base Height difficulty of zero, modified by distance). Failing this roll means the Jedi doesn’t achieve the desired height and/or distance intended. At the end of the jump, the Alter roll is made to control the landing, the difficulty is dependant on the jump trajectory (jumping upwards has a base Height difficulty of zero, modified by distance). Failing this roll means the Jedi suffers normal falling damage and/or loses balance and skids or tumbles away from the landing spot.


I like it, though I think it needs just a tad bit of explanation. You mentioned earlier that you don't see the jumping and the landing as different parts of the jump. I think that it may when you're trying to jump to platforms at different heights. If the Jedi doesn't really "fall" any distance after making the jump, it significantly changes the alter difficulty. For example, I'm a Jedi who wants to jump up to a platform 20 meters above me. If I make the control roll, then I really wouldn't have to make much of an alter roll. Conversely, when Obi Wan and Qui Gon jumped down from the ventilation shaft, they wouldn't really need to make a control roll, just an alter roll.
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Gry Sarth
Jedi


Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...
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Last edited by Gry Sarth on Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:04 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Gry Sarth
Jedi


Joined: 25 May 2004
Posts: 5304
Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil

PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EUREKA! I think I got it this time, folks. I was thinking this power over from scratch, and came up with a slightly different concept.

The one thing that truly bugged me about this is that it didn't take into consideration the character's natural jumping ability, so no matter how incredibly good or bad a jumper the Jedi was, the end result would be the same. I was wary of doing some "add you Control dice to your Jumping dice" because for that to work the difficulties would have to be raised to some weird level. Besides, I see some people have trouble with the whole taking-off, landing thing, which though quite realistic, I'll admit makes the power a bit confusing and troublesome. Not what you want out of your D6 mechanics.

So, what am I thinking now? Basically, just use your regular Jumping skill, but applied to a different difficulty table, which allows super-human jumps. And your Force skill roll simply allows you to access this "special" table. Oh, and another thing, if your Force skill roll surpasses the difficulty, you get a +1D, +2D, +3D bonus to your Jumping skill. So what that means is that if you're an excellent natural jumper but a lousy Jedi, you might end up with a 7D Jumping skill roll in this special table, and if you're a lousy jumper, but a kick-@$$ Jedi, you might also end up with a 7D jumping skill roll.

The take-off and landing will both be part of the same Jumping roll, like in any normal jump. The difficulty table will just have to be carefully thought out to handle all the different scenarios as best as possible. I'll give this some good thought.

The part that elludes me the most is which skills rolls against what, how the Jumping skill enters into that and how MAPs apply to this. I realy think this should be a Control/Alter power, with Enhance Attribute and Telekinesis as prerequisites. So maybe both Control and Alter are rolled against a difficulty of, say, Moderate. And if your rolls exceed that, you get bonuses to your jumping skill in a manner similar to Enhance Attribute. You might get bonuses from both rolls, but MAPs apply to those rolls. Now the tricky part, should the Jumping roll suffer from MAPs? I'm thinking not. This is sort of a free roll, as a consequence of activating the power. Or should it be like Lightsaber Combat, in which the actual jump is a third action in that round? (this power can most certainly NOT be kept up).

I'll try to put this into a more organized shape later.
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Gry Sarth
Jedi


Joined: 25 May 2004
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Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok guys, here's my first attempt at this new take on Force Jump. I'm really happy with the overall mechanics, maybe only the difficulties need some adjusting, as well as the whole MAPs thing, which can only be made through some playtesting. Please tell me what you think of it, ask for clarifications and suggest changes. Here it is:

Force Jump

Control Difficulty: Moderate

Alter Difficulty: Moderate

Effect: A Jedi uses this power to increase his jumping ability in order to perform impossibly high leaps. If both Force Skill rolls are successful, the character uses his normal jumping skill to perform the jump, but he uses the special table below to determine difficulties. If a Force Skill roll exceeds the difficulty, the character gains an immediate bonus to his jumping roll (bonuses from both Force Skill rolls stack). If the Jedi fails any Force Skill roll, the power is not activated and the character is left to use his normal jumping ability (and there are certain situations where you can’t back out of a jump because your power failed). At the GM's discretion, a failed jumping roll might mean the Jedi fails to achieve the desired height/distance, fails to properly cushion his landing and suffers normal falling damage, or both. Remember multiple action penalties, so the jumping roll is a third action in that round, whether the power is successful or not.

Force Skill Roll > ----- Jumping
Difficulty by: ---------- Increase

1-5 ----------------------- +1D
6-10 ---------------------- +2D
10-15 --------------------- +3D
16-20 --------------------- +4D
21+ ----------------------- +5D

Height Jumped --- Jumping Difficulty
2 meters ------------- Very Easy
4 meters ------------- Easy
8 meters ------------- Moderate
16 meters ------------ Difficult
24 meters ------------ Very Difficult
32 meters ------------ Heroic
Add 5 to the difficulty for every additional 8 meters.

Distance Jumped -- Difficulty Modifier
2 meters --------------- +2
4 meters --------------- +4
8 meters --------------- +8
16 meters -------------- +16
24 meters -------------- +24
32 meters -------------- +32
Add 5 to the difficulty for every additional 8 meters.

If the character is simply jumping downwards, with no upwards movement, reduce jumping difficulty by one level.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First thing first. Your table says Force skill > by. I think it should designate whether it is the control, or alter. So, for instance maybe we could do this:

Quote:

Control difficulty: Moderate
Alter difficulty: See table below
Alter Roll > ----- Jumping
Difficulty by: ---------- Increase

1-5 ----------------------- +1D
6-10 ---------------------- +2D
10-15 --------------------- +3D
16-20 --------------------- +4D
21+ ----------------------- +5D

Height Jumped --- Jumping Difficulty
2 meters ------------- Very Easy
4 meters ------------- Easy
8 meters ------------- Moderate
16 meters ------------ Difficult
24 meters ------------ Very Difficult
32 meters ------------ Heroic
Add 5 to the difficulty for every additional 8 meters.


Or feel free to make the alter moderate and the control the variable.

I'm a little torn as to whether or not this is a free roll or if it acquires multiple action pelalties.

Let's put it to a play test. I've got an old character I can dig up. But for the moment, let's take a look at Obi Wan Kenobi. (You may feel free to rip me apart on my methods here). Obi Wan in the Trilogy SE sourcebook has a climbing/jumping of 6D. If you convert him from the RotS d20 stats, they've got him at 6D+1. So, we may be able to use the stats from WEG and compare it to his performance in the movies without major problems.

Okay, he easily makes the control roll. And the alter roll of 8D (average 32). So, he easily makes a Heroic+ roll, so we add +5D to his climbing jumping. We have to subtract 2D because the jump would be his third action. So, we have a climbing/jumping of 9D.

Here's where I have a question. At this point, does your climbing/jumping chart reflect what would be normally easy/difficult/heroic/etc or does it reflect a specifically Force Jump difficulty?

(Sorry for the lengthy post.)
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garhkal
Sovereign Protector
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not have both add in. Say with control giving X pips for success, and alter giving other pips...
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Gry Sarth
Jedi


Joined: 25 May 2004
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Location: Sao Paulo - Brazil

PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My intention was that BOTH Force Skill rolls might grant bonuses to jumping. You might get a +1D from your Control Roll and a +2D from you Alter roll, so you'll end up rolling Jumping +3D. Cheshire, your playtesting has some erros, like not subracting the Moderate difficulty from the Alter roll in order to determine the bonus amount. And my jumping difficulties table uses the standard difficulties range (Very Easy 1-5, Easy 6-10, Moderate 11-15, etc)

Ok, let me have a go at some playtesting. Obi-Wan in Ep3 => Jumping 6D, Control 10D, Alter 7D (I've skipped some +1 for ease).
Average Moderate difficulty = 13, 3 actions in a round = -2D penalty.
Average Control 8D (10D-2D) roll = 28 => +3D bonus
Average Alter 5D (7D-2D) roll = 18 => +1D bonus
Average 8D (6D-2D+4D) Jumping = 28 => Jump 24m up OR 24m across, OR 16m up and 8 meters across, OR jump down 32 meters.

So what do you think, for an Ep3 OB1 average Force Jump? Too powerful, too weak or just about right. I don't know, doesn't seem far from the truth for me...

I must note that with just another pip in Control and Alter, OB1's average jumping bonus climbs to +4D +2D = +6D. Which would result in an average Jumping 10D roll of 35, adding about 8 meters to his jumps.

Right now the one thing that really concerns me about this power is that, with the MAPs, the average Jedi will have a very hard time rolling high enough to simply activate the power. You'll need at least 4D in Control and Alter to have a shot at this power. Do you think that's reasonable? Well, that's also the case of Lightsaber Combat..... But I do think padawans should be able to perform some neat 3 meter jumps without having to spend a Force Point. Dang! What is it about this power that's so hard to nail it down?!!
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think if both rolls are intended to give you bonuses, it makes the jump easier, but it sort of goes against the D6 simplicity. A couple of Force powers have more than one difficulty chart, but I don't think any of them require you to make a roll, record the bouns, make another roll, record the bonus, make another roll while adding the bonus, and then compare to a chart. It's not like its horribly complicated, but to me it seems that simpler is better.

Personally, I don't think it's underpowerd. I think it's appropriate. The padawan probably isn't going to be using Force jump right away. There are other powers, such as enhance attribute or concentration that will help them pull off a less difficult jump. If anything, it might be a bit overpowerd to have Obi-Wan jump the heigth of a football field. Though, given the general cinematic use of the Force powers (some of which being a bit over the top as it is) it's probably okay.
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Pel
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Joined: 10 May 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Since this isn't a purely combat skill like Lightsaber Combat, I'd drop the Jump roll from the MAPS to make it a bit easier. I see the Jedi using this mostly to avoid or flee from combat, so they should get some sort of bonus. Subtracting a single die for multiple Force skill use is reasonable and will keep Padawans from leaping around like deranged frogs on a hotplate. Sorry - mental image there. Laughing
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Gry Sarth
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, ideas to consider here:

- Making the Jumping a free action, so that this becomes a two-actions feat. This makes it easier to make the Force Skills difficulties, though now that people will roll their full Jumping plus bonuses, the difficulties must be adjusted.

- Making only one Force Skill roll grant bonuses. This makes the mechanics simpler and the outcome a bit more predictable, but diffiuclties must be adjusted accordingly.
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Pel
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know that I'd adjust the difficulties due to only a single MAP. Padawans will make short easy leaps, while legendary Masters will leap tall buildings in a single bound if they want to. Come to think of it, some Jedi are faster than a speeding bullet and the Force is more powerful than a locomotive... Laughing

I'd leave the dual Force skill use, since neither Control or Alter will accomplish this feat alone. As for the landings mentioned earlier, leave that to the Wild Die.
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gry Sarth wrote:
Ok, ideas to consider here:

- Making the Jumping a free action, so that this becomes a two-actions feat. This makes it easier to make the Force Skills difficulties, though now that people will roll their full Jumping plus bonuses, the difficulties must be adjusted.

- Making only one Force Skill roll grant bonuses. This makes the mechanics simpler and the outcome a bit more predictable, but diffiuclties must be adjusted accordingly.


That sounds pretty awesome. It sounds simple and effective.
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