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CRMcNeill
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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 Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | It's scary when you are thinking what I am thinking.  |
LMAO. Maybe we are more alike than we realize. It'll be a good thought to hold onto the next time we are gearing up for a quote war.
| Quote: | | That is the one problem I saw with the one skill/attribute rule, since powers like affect mind, projective telepathy, and lightsaber combat all use multiple force skills. But on the other hand, I don't want the Force powers to be too over the top so I am a little concerned that doubling all the skills for that power is too much. Compare doubling the lightsaber skill vs. doubling (per the RAW) the lightsaber combat power effect which increases both to hit and damage. I'm thinking something less than doubling all the skills for a single power may be needed, though I am not sure what mechanic to use to manage that. |
A possible alternative that I was considering was, in the case of Force abilities that require multiple skill rolls, perhaps the Jedi could be allowed to spend a Force Point for each skill involved, with the appropriate risks for heroic action.
For example, a character wants to spend a FP on Lightsaber Combat, but to get the full doubling effect, he would have to spend two FPs, one for Control and one for Sense. It would increase the risk/reward for the potential of losing a FP if it was spent for non-heroic action, but also the possibility of gaining back both of those spent FPs, plus two more if the roll was used for the right reason.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
Vice Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2010
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Location: Maryland, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:50 pm Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Bren wrote: | | It's scary when you are thinking what I am thinking. |
LMAO. Maybe we are more alike than we realize. It'll be a good thought to hold onto the next time we are gearing up for a quote war. |
Agreed. 
| crmcneill wrote: | A possible alternative that I was considering was, in the case of Force abilities that require multiple skill rolls, perhaps the Jedi could be allowed to spend a Force Point for each skill involved, with the appropriate risks for heroic action.
For example, a character wants to spend a FP on Lightsaber Combat, but to get the full doubling effect, he would have to spend two FPs, one for Control and one for Sense. It would increase the risk/reward for the potential of losing a FP if it was spent for non-heroic action, but also the possibility of gaining back both of those spent FPs, plus two more if the roll was used for the right reason. |
That could work. So lightsaber combat they could spend 1 FP to double one of Control or Sense and 2 FP to double both. Similarly for Affect Mind, they could spend 1-3 FP.
Regaining the 2 or 3 points used makes sense and is quite reasonable. But I would not let them gain more than 1 FP from the action. That is too beneficial.
I'm also thinking that reducing a FP to doubling only one skill or attribute probably requires allowing use of CPs in the same round (for defense if nothing else). In that case a Jedi could spend CPs on the other force skill rolls for a multi-skill force power.
| atgxtg wrote: | | How about spending a FP just shifts the Success level of an action? |
That would be like 007. But in 007 you had multiple success levels. In Star Wars you really only have two main result levels: Succeed or Fail. For some special circumstances you have Succeed with a bonus e.g. optional blaster to hit rules that add +1 damage per 5 points over the difficulty and some Force Powers have greater effects if you roll better than the difficulty.
I'm not seeing how this would work. I know you may have explained your idea before, but could you point to the prior thread or do so again, preferably with an example or two?
I'm open to ideas, but I ideally I want something that is not too complicated or crunchy, that allows characters to do more with a FP than they do with a couple of CPs, that works with the Variant Lightsaber Dueling rules (and with the RAW), and that doesn't propogate the existing FP first-strike nuclear result in Jedi vs Dark Sider lightsaber duels.
I know I don't want much...oh yeah, and if could make the rules perfect that would be nice too. 
Thanks! |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
That would be like 007. But in 007 you had multiple success levels. In Star Wars you really only have two main result levels: Succeed or Fail. For some special circumstances you have Succeed with a bonus e.g. optional blaster to hit rules that add +1 damage per 5 points over the difficulty and some Force Powers have greater effects if you roll better than the difficulty.
I'm not seeing how this would work. I know you may have explained your idea before, but could you point to the prior thread or do so again, preferably with an example or two? |
Okay. Basically, spending an FP ups the SL. Now, yes many things use a Succeed/Fail mechanic, but even so, no problem. All doubling the dice code of one skill for one action does is to greatly increase the chance of success. This idea just streamlines that.
For example, lets say a PC is flying down the Death Star trench, and tries to fire proton torpedoes into the exhaust port to start a chain reaction. With this option Luke spends 1FP and bumps his roll up to a success.
That 007 had multiple degrees of success (quality ratings) isn't a problem here, since 007 also made it possible to earn more Hero Points during an adventure, while in D6 the value is more static.
Note that since FPs could alter Sls rather than adding dice, you could allow players to spend them after the die rolls.
Example 2, Luke is fighting Vader on Bespin. Luke rolled a 50 (!) parry that round, but the GM rolls a 49 for Vader's attack, and deides to spend a CP. By RAW, Luke gets hit. But with this variant Luke could burn an FP successfully parry Vader's attack.
This idea could also help to streamline some of the Force Powers, bypassing a roll by spending an FP.
A way to make this even more powerful would be for FP reactions not to count for MAP purposes.
I think this would fill most of your criteria. It isn't complicated, or crunchy (it's simpler than the RAW); it should work with the RAW and the dueling variant; and an FP is certainly better than a couple of CPs (especially if you can use the the way I let Luke did to parry). It even makes FPs as flexible and powerful as CPs are.
If you let defensive Cps be spent after offesnive CPs- also like 007) you solve the nuke strike problem in RAW. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | That could work. So lightsaber combat they could spend 1 FP to double one of Control or Sense and 2 FP to double both. Similarly for Affect Mind, they could spend 1-3 FP.
Regaining the 2 or 3 points used makes sense and is quite reasonable. But I would not let them gain more than 1 FP from the action. That is too beneficial. |
That's fair. I was thinking of it from the perspective of, if the character is going to risk 2-3 FPs on a roll, the payback at the end should be commensurate. After all, if he spends 2-3 FPs on a roll and doesn't get them back, he has lost quite a bit. I figure the reward for spending that many FPs for truly heroic action should match what he would've lost otherwise.
| Quote: | | I'm also thinking that reducing a FP to doubling only one skill or attribute probably requires allowing use of CPs in the same round (for defense if nothing else). In that case a Jedi could spend CPs on the other force skill rolls for a multi-skill force power. |
I'm liking this rule a lot. It makes the FP more of a super-CP than an "epic superhero for one round" point. In fact, when I first started playing 1E, the GM used something very similar as a house rule and just never bothered to tell us otherwise.
_________________
"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | Okay. Basically, spending an FP ups the SL. Now, yes many things use a Succeed/Fail mechanic, but even so, no problem. All doubling the dice code of one skill for one action does is to greatly increase the chance of success. This idea just streamlines that...
...I think this would fill most of your criteria. It isn't complicated, or crunchy (it's simpler than the RAW); it should work with the RAW and the dueling variant; and an FP is certainly better than a couple of CPs (especially if you can use the the way I let Luke did to parry). It even makes FPs as flexible and powerful as CPs are. |
Perhaps I am just a bit slow-witted today. I'm not seeing how a FP upping the SL works with the dueling variant. The dueling variant relies on the difference between the attack and the parry with increasing levels of effect/damage for relatively higher attacks. Under this system, adding a CP equals about about 1 level in the table if the interval is 3-4. Adding 2 CPs equals about a level and a half if the interval is 5. How does a FP move you on the table. Under a skill doubling rule, if a FP doubles your lightsaber skill of say 6D the FP doubling is equivalent to a 21 point add which is at least 4-5 levels on the table. If a FP just moves you up (or down) one level on the table, that doesn't seem to be enough of an adjustment. How were you thinking the FP would work?
| atgxtg wrote: | | If you let defensive Cps be spent after offesnive CPs- also like 007) you solve the nuke strike problem in RAW. |
I don't think it solves the problem. Because in the RAW a FP double everything, a Jedi with 6D lightsaber, 6D control, and 5D sense with lightsaber combat up has an attack of 6D+5D-2D=9D and does 5D+6D-2D=9D damage. If they use a FP they now attack with 6D+5Dx2-2D=14D and they do 5D+6Dx2-2D=15D damage. Fighting an equal opponent, if one Jedi uses a FP and his opponent does not, even if the opponent spends 5CPs on his parry, the attacker has 14D vs the defender's 9D+5D=14D. There is a 50% chance the attacker hits. If he does, he does 15D damage and there is almost no way the defender will survive even if he does spend 5 more CPs on his STR roll. Even a 5D STR Wookiee Jedi defending is going to take on average 5D damage after the soak roll and spending 5 more CPs and that still averages out to a result of dead. |
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Random Numbers
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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I like the fatepoints of warhammer fantasy roleplay. You fate against a failed roll or death. And only PC have the fate.
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Random Numbers wrote: | | I like the fatepoints of warhammer fantasy roleplay. You fate against a failed roll or death. And only PC have the fate. |
How does the Fate Point work?
So if you fail a roll, does a Fate Point let you automatically succeed or does it just allow you to reroll?
If you use a Fate Point against death, what happens? Are you alive, but mortally wounded, alive, but lightly wounded, alive with no damage at all? |
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TyCaine
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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From the WFRP First Edition rules (Core Rulebook):
| Quote: | | Fate Points are used to save a character from certain death; by expending a Fate Point, a character can live to fight another day. For example, a character may expend a Fate Point in order to ignore a critical hit reault which would otherwise have proved fatal - the character is knocked unconscious rather than killed and wakes up having been left for dead, or is merely grazed by the killing blow. A character who falls of a cliff can expend a Fate Point in order to walk away unharmed - saved by a million-to-one chance such as a bush or a patch of exceptionally soft sand. |
So they are mostly used to save a character from certain death, the actual effects are up to the GM.
Looking up my other rule books to see if they added to that for dice rolls and such...
T.C.
Last edited by TyCaine on Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TyCaine
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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From the WFRP First Edition rules (Apocrypha Now book):
| Quote: | | Basically, a Fate Point can be expended whenever a character is about to die - in combat, through traps or accidents, as a result of poison or disease, or in any other circumstances. Instead of dying, the character expends a Fate Point and then the GM has to devise some way of ensuring that the character survives. |
T.C. |
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garhkal
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: | | Fallon Kell wrote: | | Incidentally, I do kind of like the nuclear-ness of the force point. I think it's space opera-ish to be able to dive into a firefight and be a superhero for five seconds. |
The problem I see is when the villain dives into a firefight first you get a dead hero or a total party kill instead of a PC superhero or when the PCs dive in immediately (because they are afraid to wait since the villain may dive in first) and there is no time for a dramatic denouement nor for the villain to make his manaical monologue. But if you aren't experiencing a problem with FPs then don't change anything.
I've been thinking about the comments so far and I am thinking a dice pool may be too complicated and may slow down play. So I am starting to lean towards a simplification of just doubling one skill or attribute for the round the way it is in Hercules and Xena. |
Maybe its just the groups i am in, but every major fight with the BBEG, the PCS don't hold back in spendin force points..
| Quote: | | How about spending a FP just shifts the Success level of an action? |
Can you explain this more??
| Quote: | | I'm open to ideas, but I ideally I want something that is not too complicated or crunchy, that allows characters to do more with a FP than they do with a couple of CPs, that works with the Variant Lightsaber Dueling rules (and with the RAW), and that doesn't propogate the existing FP first-strike nuclear result in Jedi vs Dark Sider lightsaber duels. |
Hows about change it to where
CP's Add as normal, but NO explosion as if wild dice on a 6 roll.. Limit 2 normal, 3 life saving or specialty (not 5 as is current).
Force points, add in flat 3-4d regardless of D amt normal. AND are like their own wild dice (roll 6, reroll and add in).
| Quote: | | I like the fatepoints of warhammer fantasy roleplay. You fate against a failed roll or death. And only PC have the fate. |
I have never liked rules like that which just apply to pcs only.
Also how many does the WFRP give out? Do they replenish?
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks T.C. for the explanation. I've never played Warhammer and it is a rule set I don't own.
Random, while useful, the save from death mechanic doesn't address the use of a FP to succeed at something rather than just to survive. It is actually the using the FP to succeed at something that I am thinking needs adjusting in Star Wars. Does Warhammer have something like that and if so, how does it work?
| garhkal wrote: | | Maybe its just the groups i am in, but every major fight with the BBEG, the PCS don't hold back in spendin force points.. |
Yes it is just the groups you are in.  But really the issue isn't holding back or not holding back from using a FP. The issue is how to design a combat system, including the use of FPs and CPs, that allows a multi round combat to occur that is something like what we see in the movies, books, and cartoons. The way lightsaber combat works with the use of FPs, the battle between Vader and Luke would have been over in 1 round, 2 rounds tops. Unless George, the GM, was intentionally having Vader pull his punches throughout the battle. I'd like a system that doesn't rely on the GM making the NPC pull his punches or playing the bad guy so stupid or overconfident that he/she forgets to use a FP (DSP) when the PCs use one.
| Quote: | Hows about change it to where
CP's Add as normal, but NO explosion as if wild dice on a 6 roll.. Limit 2 normal, 3 life saving or specialty (not 5 as is current).
Force points, add in flat 3-4d regardless of D amt normal. AND are like their own wild dice (roll 6, reroll and add in). |
You seem to be trying to fix something that I don't consider broken. I don't have any problem with the wild die exploding or rolling a 1. Though we usually house rule that a 1 on the wild die when using a FP just counts as a normal 1 while a 6 does explode. It is rather deflating and anticlimactic to have the FP enhanced roll end up too low to succeed due to a 1 on the wild die.
You seem to be trying to make it easier to damage characters. That is not what I am trying to do. I am trying to allow combat to play out over several rounds so that a character (PC or NPC) has a chance to surrender, run away, call for help from allies, or switch to a different mode of combat (force push, pull out a blaster, change to a new Form, toss a grenade, whatever) rather than having the first to use a FP wins and in the event of a tie, the character who is 1D or 2D better wins because when doubled their 1D or 2D advantage is a dominating 2D-4D+ advantage.
| Quote: | | I have never liked rules like that which just apply to pcs only. |
Personally I am ambivalent about this. The PCs are the heroes so there could be rules that apply just to them. However, all else being equal, I prefer a system that is a bit more even-handed in its effect. My actual concern is that Fate points that save the life of a character (PC or NPC) don't make the lightsaber duel run better. They just add what is, in effect, a Fate Point saving throw vs. Death at the end of the duel. |
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TyCaine
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: |
| Quote: | | I like the fatepoints of warhammer fantasy roleplay. You fate against a failed roll or death. And only PC have the fate. |
I have never liked rules like that which just apply to pcs only.
Also how many does the WFRP give out? Do they replenish? |
Fate Points are only PC based to reflect the fact that the PCs are meant to be the heroes of the world, though starting as simple adventurers, they have the ability to become quite powerful, normally at which pint the GM gets everyone to roll up a new character and 'retires' the old ones...
As to number, normally between 1 and 4 Fate Points, based upon character race as some races believe in the whim of the fates more than others. They do not replenish, once used they are gone, however, depending on the PCs actions, they can gain more Fate Points during the course of their adventures. So although a Fate Point could be a powerful thing, it is built in as a limited resource.
| Bren wrote: | | Does Warhammer have something like that and if so, how does it work? |
I have never seen a rule in WFRP that allows for re-rolls, I dug through my cache of books and could not find anything either, that's not to say it doesn't exist as a House Rule or as a missed Rules addition in a supplement somewhere, and it's also not to say the latest incarnation of WFRP rules hasn't changed slightly, I'm not familiar with the latest, but also being that they are very limited in number, reserving them for Life or Death makes more sense...
Which of course means it may not be the rule addition you're looking for... *typed in a sage, Ben Kenobi manner*
T.C. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| TyCaine wrote: | Which of course means it may not be the rule addition you're looking for... *typed in a sage, Ben Kenobi manner*
T.C. |
Yeah. I was afraid of that. |
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atgxtg
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Bren wrote: |
Perhaps I am just a bit slow-witted today. I'm not seeing how a FP upping the SL works with the dueling variant. The dueling variant relies on the difference between the attack and the parry with increasing levels of effect/damage for relatively higher attacks. Under this system, adding a CP equals about about 1 level in the table if the interval is 3-4. Adding 2 CPs equals about a level and a half if the interval is 5. How does a FP move you on the table. Under a skill doubling rule, if a FP doubles your lightsaber skill of say 6D the FP doubling is equivalent to a 21 point add which is at least 4-5 levels on the table. If a FP just moves you up (or down) one level on the table, that doesn't seem to be enough of an adjustment. How were you thinking the FP would work? |
Well, my initial idea was for the FP to cancel out the attacker's advantage or double it. So if someone beats you by 15 and you spend an FP you manage to parry. If you are beating smeone by 15, spending an FP doubles your advange to 30. This pretty much what happens in the RAW, only it is limited to one roll.
If you don't like that, then Is suggest something like a 4 rung jump on the ladder.
[ | Quote: | | I don't think it solves the problem. Because in the RAW a FP double everything, a Jedi with 6D lightsaber, 6D control, and 5D sense with lightsaber combat up has an attack of 6D+5D-2D=9D and does 5D+6D-2D=9D damage. If they use a FP they now attack with 6D+5Dx2-2D=14D and they do 5D+6Dx2-2D=15D damage. Fighting an equal opponent, if one Jedi uses a FP and his opponent does not, even if the opponent spends 5CPs on his parry, the attacker has 14D vs the defender's 9D+5D=14D. There is a 50% chance the attacker hits. If he does, he does 15D damage and there is almost no way the defender will survive even if he does spend 5 more CPs on his STR roll. Even a 5D STR Wookiee Jedi defending is going to take on average 5D damage after the soak roll and spending 5 more CPs and that still averages out to a result of dead. |
Yes, according to the RAW. But if the FP bumps the defender's roll up to a TIE,nomatter what the actual die result was, then spending 1 FP defensively will stop any one attack. Even if the oppoent has four times the number of dice. So, to use a poker anaology, the guy with the most FPs can't just "buy the pot" as in the RAW. |
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Bren
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| Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | Well, my initial idea was for the FP to cancel out the attacker's advantage or double it. So if someone beats you by 15 and you spend an FP you manage to parry. If you are beating smeone by 15, spending an FP doubles your advange to 30. This pretty much what happens in the RAW, only it is limited to one roll. |
I just didn't get that before. Got it now.
| Quote: | | But if the FP bumps the defender's roll up to a TIE, no matter what the actual die result was, then spending 1 FP defensively will stop any one attack. Even if the oppoent has four times the number of dice. So, to use a poker anaology, the guy with the most FPs can't just "buy the pot" as in the RAW. |
So it sounds like you are assuming a defensive use blocks out an offensive use. So if the attacker rolls a 15 normally, using a FP doubles the result to 30. But if the defender uses a FP he successfully parries no matter whether the difference is 15 or 30. Did I get that?
A few follow up questions. When is the FP declared?
If there is one roll for a combined attack & parry, than there are only 3 possible outcomes for A's and B's rolls: A>B, A=B, A<B. If A>B then A is the attacker, if A=B there is a tie, and if A<B then B is the attacker. So the attacker uses their FP for attack and the defender uses their FP for defense.
This seems designed for the single roll combat resolution. How would this work if the attack and parry are rolled separately? Now the same FP should be effecting both the attack and the parry and the result is more complicated since we now have four cases: A and B both hit, A and B both miss, A hits and B misses, or A misses and B hits.
Final note, it still seems like the guy with the most FPs will probably win since he will run out of FPs last. But at least this way if the weaker opponent has 3 FP it will take at least 4 rounds for him to lose. And if he is lucky, he may be able to flee before then. Though that would seem more likely as a result if the character knew that his foe had more FPs than he did to start. I think this is where a system where the opponents lose Ds of lightsaber skill has an advantage since if I know I have lost 4D and my opponent has lost none, I am likely in big trouble. |
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