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How do you rank Jedi??
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Kira Firestorm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:15 am    Post subject: How do you rank Jedi?? Reply with quote

Okay so i've looked at varies sights and found one were they made stats for most of the known or seen Jedi in all the movies or Clone Wars series.
But my question is at what Die Code are you considered a Padawan to, when do you become a Knight and what level would you be considered a Master?

Example i have seen Luminara Unduli with Control 6D, sense 8D+2, alter 7D+2 and she is a Master, so do we roughly say that a Padawan can be upto roughly 5D, Knight upto 6d-8d and Master beyond that.

Is this about right, as i am playing in a campaign and there is no clear level that i have seen to identify your progress.
What are others thoughts?
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cheshire
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mileage varies around here. I used to hear people say that at a combined CSA of 7D, then you're a knight, and 30D you're a master. I'm not sure that necessarily pans out. I'm willing to say that 30D combined CSA you're a Jedi Master, but in terms of Jedi Knight, I would say that at the very least they should have enough dice to reliably do a mind-trick and regularly pull up lightsaber combat without having to spend character points.
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Kira Firestorm
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so the fine line between Master and Grandmaster is only a few D by the looks of it too.
So you would agree then that:
Padawan 1d-6d roughly
Knight 7d-9d roughly
Master 10d+
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it depends on what era you are in and on what power level you want in game. The stats for the Master level characters in the prequels are so high that I can't ever really see wanting to run characters (as a player or a GM) with stats that high. They would make everyone around them who isn't a master pretty superfluous. So we set the stat guideline a bit lower. A knight has a minimum of 5D to 6D average for CSA with mastery around 9D.

But I've been rethinking the CSA requirements after reading Jedi Path. It lists the tests for Knighthood. Really only one test is related to actual CSA power.

The book indicates the usual criteria for Mastery is having trained a Padawan to Knight - not any change in CSA power. That would indicate that difference in power between a Knight and a Master may be minimal - which is what we see when we look at Anakin or Obi-Wan vs Luminar Unduli.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1-5d padawan imo
6-9d knight
10d+ master
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Crimson_red
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My original D6 group, back in the 90s, considered 7D to be a knight level skill and 13D to be master level, and we felt somewhat validated in that call when D20 came out and made knights Lv 7 and Masters L13. Now-a-days that seems a little extreme., and around 2D-5D Padawan and 5D-7D seems a good range for a knight.

I find Master has been inconsistently handled, particularly in the prequel trilogy: Ki-Adi-Mundi being a Knight on the High Council in TPM (early EU refernce), among other things; Obi-Wan becoming a Master effectively the same time becoming a knight; Anikan not becoming a Master despite having an apprentice, and so on. Some of these have been retconned, others likely just my own misinterpretations, but I've been left with the impression that Master is a title of different meaning: attributed to (1) any Knight with an Apprentice (kind of defunct now after RotS and Clone Wars), or (2) someone who has demonstrated exceptional skill. Ideally the first should be the latter, but that is not necessarily the case, and the latter need not necessarily demonstrate exceptional skill with the force. An example would be Jorus C'baoth, rewarded for his accomplishments as a Mediator (not to say his force skills weren't impressive as well).

With that convoluted thought out of the way, I think a Jedi Master can fall in a much broader range (7D+), probably favoring around 10D, but that could include skills beyond the 3 force skills...
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Master (like Captain in the Navy) is used as both a rank and as a position.

Position:
  • So any Padawan (or former Padawan) may call his teacher Master (even if the teacher is only a Knight). Here Master is describing the position of one who is in a pedagogical and mentoring role to the Padawan.
  • Similarly a if 2 Padawans and their teachers are on a mission together. Padawan A may call Padawan B's teacher "Master" as a courtesy title even though B's teacher is actually a Knight.

Rank:
  • A member of the Jedi Council is automatically a Master - whether they have to be a Master to be put on the Council or whether putting a Knight on the Council elevates the Knight to Master may be unclear, but essentially if you are on the Council you are a Master. This is why Anakin was annoyed at being appointed as the Chancellor's Representative to the Council. Because as a Representative he did not need to be a Master.
  • A Jedi whose Padawan passes the tests and reaches Knighthood becomes a Master. He has fulfilled one of the primary functions of the order by passing on what he knew and this more than some particular skill with CSA demonstrates his fitness to be called a Master. (In a way this is similar to some human societies where to become a senior adult one had to have children.)
  • A Jedi who is acknowledged by the Council as a Master is a Master even if she is not on the Council and has never successfully trained a Padawan.



Edited to add the third way to reach the rank of Master.


Last edited by Bren on Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Downstrike
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice Bren.
I always thought of it as more of a mason thing where the more of the tradition/rites you know the higher your standing. Otherwise any magical jerk off the street could claim to be a jedi master.


Last edited by Downstrike on Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Crimson_red
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bren wrote:
I think Master (like Captain in the Navy) is used as both a rank and as a position.


I've kind of had to come to the same conclusion, though not so elegantly or precisely put. With so much SW lore floating around these days, it can get all jumbled up in my head sometimes, leading to conclusions more convoluted than they have to be, lol
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Bren
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crimson_red wrote:
I've kind of had to come to the same conclusion
Yeah, it's the only thing that seems to make sense of some of the dialog in the prequel films and the TV show.

Also, I think there are other reasons for titles doing double duty.

Same thing with the term Jedi - which includes Padawan's but I think often the world outside of the Jedi Order assumes any Jedi they meet in any kind of position of authority is a Jedi Knight or Master. And I think the Order (and especially the Padawans who are out and about) are often happy for the outside world to think exactly that.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So do you have 2 separate trials.. one to go from padawan to knight, one from knight to master?
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Kira Firestorm
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good replies so far, varied points of voice and a group discussion with the varies ways you can be seen as a master.
For me, i have a character that has not trained a padawan yet, and for your know, we are when Luke has started his Jedi Praxium on Yavin 4.
Yet, i have C: 6d+2, S and A: 7D.

So my character has done very memorable things in her career to date, opposes slavery of all kinds, has worked extremely hard to free Ryloth from piracy and such. As for her Force, she is training in the ancient ways of the Jedi Shadow (those that directly oppose Sith). A dark and dangerous path.

As for some of the posts, it is interesting to note changed canon, varies apparent ways in the prequels over what we all knew prior to them.
Luminari, has Bariss, yet is still a master, her skills are not yet 9D.

Would with how Luke Skywalker resurects the Jedi, would he have to make changes how they structure rank, i mean he had to teach them all differently than prior to Clone Wars,he doesn't have a dozen teachers, holocrons, whole libraries and a few hundred Jedi to guide him.
Though Yoda and Obi-wan taught him the ways of the Force, i don't think they would have passed on the knowledge how to teach others appropriately.
This why you find several of his students fall to the Dark Side so many times.
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Downstrike
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would have to say that only the stuff that Ghost Yoda thought was important [and whoever else that would be heard from the grave] would be passed down to the new Jedi. As to the time when Old Ben and Yoda were alive, he most likely got a high school history lesson equivalent. One step above chopping cherry trees but little more.

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Crimson_red
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kira Firestorm wrote:
Would with how Luke Skywalker resurects the Jedi, would he have to make changes how they structure rank, i mean he had to teach them all differently than prior to Clone Wars,he doesn't have a dozen teachers, holocrons, whole libraries and a few hundred Jedi to guide him.
Though Yoda and Obi-wan taught him the ways of the Force, i don't think they would have passed on the knowledge how to teach others appropriately.
This why you find several of his students fall to the Dark Side so many times.


Going from the novels, I don't recall Luke's Jedi using the term Padawan until the latest books... it might even have been in The Fate of The Jedi, that I read them using the term for the first time, so that atleast is a superficial difference.

I would think the expectations for Knights to be roughly the same, since it seems that about the one thing people seemed to agree upon was that Luke had 'completed' his training by RotJ, giving him a good approximation of expected skill. For the first few generations of Luke's Jedi, since most of them were much older when they began their training I would say they are about equally competent, but they probably had a much greater emphasis on non-force skills and force powers that might augment them, giving them a different feel.

As for rank of Master, Luke seemed less vague on the title than we've found in the prequel (less position and more rank... or perhaps vice versa). I think it was in the Thrawn trilogy or early Jedi Academy trilogy (I need to start rereading again, lol), didn't Luke make a point of clarifying that he was just a Jedi, not a Master Jedi?

I think the title was much closer tied to having an apprentice or recognition of achievement than necessarily outright skill in the force... this more so for Luke's earliest students, who started at older age and had much broader skill sets, and probably changed as his Jedi Order matured. Again I think it wouldn't be out of place to find Luke's Masters less skilled with their use of the force.

With all that in mind, when a knight became a master may have been less formalized in Luke's Jedi Order.

I do maintain that the Jedi of these two separate eras (prequel and new republic) seem to demonstrate different feels, or more precisely how I feel about them; the prequel Jedi seemed more monk or mystic with martial training where Luke's Jedi often seemed warrior or defender with mystic abilities... again, this seems to have been changing in the newer novels as Luke's Jedi seem more and more to mirror those of the prequels (something I dislike since in my mind the prequel Jedi had stagnated as an order, falling victim to the weight of a thousand generations of struggle, hardship, and hubris... After the prequels, I always felt that Anikan brought balance to more than just the light and dark sides of the force... the jedi needed a reboot themselves)
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Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd rank them as REALLY BLOODY DANGEROUS!

It's the glowy swords of death. Razz
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