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Leon The Lion
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Location: Somewhere in Poland
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 Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:36 am Post subject: |
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By RAW (2ed, p.93), "flying a starship down an artificial canyon on a space station" is a moderate task, which is a free, no roll action... If you're moving at half speed only.
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:12 am Post subject: |
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Half speed? Luke specifically said they were going in full throttle.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| Leon The Lion wrote: | | By RAW (2ed, p.93), "flying a starship down an artificial canyon on a space station" is a moderate task, which is a free, no roll action... If you're moving at half speed only. |
Yup, and...
| crmcneill wrote: | | Half speed? Luke specifically said they were going in full throttle. |
.
Which causes another problem with the RAW, since in 2R&E Luke wouldn't be able to do anything else but pilot if he went full throttle! Which would make the whole Death Star run sort of pointless.
Now assuming we stick with 2R&E (the problem doesn't exist in 1E, 2E, or Star Warriors), we might say that Luke dropped down from Full Throttle during the actual attack part, or at least after Vader got taken care of. It's cheesy, but he could have dropped speed right before the attack.
But I doubt he was able to drop down to half speed in order to make the movement a free action.
So I really think Concentration is out.
The whole "Trust your feelings." thing would strongly suggest using Sense to me!. But then, I'm the guy would would like to standardize the Force mechanics so that all the bonuses work the same way, and could use the same table. |
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gavin storm
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Joined: 07 Mar 2014
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Location: Warrington, UK
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:05 am Post subject: |
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I think the size of the port would be a limiting factor at high speeds for the targeting computer.
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| gavin storm wrote: | | I think the size of the port would be a limiting factor at high speeds for the targeting computer. |
Certainly, and at low speeds, too. But it won't affect the difficulty in flying the X-Wing. |
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quetzacotl wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | but the terrain alone |
He can just fly straight towards his target.
There is no difficulty at all, this would be an easy or moderate difficutly terrain, which would allow you to fly with a free action if you drive with cruising speed (or maybe even one faster, not actually sure at what point you always have to make a roll).
There is nothing in the way, he is in the middle and there is no obstacle on a straight path toward his target.
If some of the ship parts were moving like in an asteroid feld, yeah, this would require an action.
But the Situation he is right now does not require a whole action, just a free one.
So I see no Problems with RAW when he makes:
Flying (Free Action), Concentrate (Action), Shooting (Action)
This is completely RAW. |
AS i mentioned in the other thread (in the official forums) if the trench run was only a moderate or lower difficulty terrain AND he was going at half speed (cautious) he could do it as a FREE action. At any other speed, he WOULD be rolling for it (though at cruise speed he would be counting it as an action but not needing to make the roll by the RAW).
And i seriously doubt from all the times i have watched it, they were going in at anything LESS than Double speed (high).
| Quote: | | Half speed? Luke specifically said they were going in full throttle. |
So now we need to figure out whether Full throttle meant he was doing a Cruise speed maneuver (regular speed) or High speed maneuver (double).
He could NOT have been going flank, as he would then have not been able to shoot (or dodge those fighters on their butts)..
| Quote: |
Now assuming we stick with 2R&E (the problem doesn't exist in 1E, 2E, or Star Warriors), we might say that Luke dropped down from Full Throttle during the actual attack part, or at least after Vader got taken care of. It's cheesy, but he could have dropped speed right before the attack.
But I doubt he was able to drop down to half speed in order to make the movement a free action.
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He would have needed '4 move actions' to have done that (shift down to cautious speed) as you can only shift up or down one speed cat for vehicles/ships (unlike people moving can be done in 2 speed cat increments).
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DougRed4
Rear Admiral
Joined: 18 Jan 2013
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| garhkal wrote: | | Quetzacotl wrote: | | garhkal wrote: | | but the terrain alone |
He can just fly straight towards his target.
There is no difficulty at all, this would be an easy or moderate difficutly terrain, which would allow you to fly with a free action if you drive with cruising speed (or maybe even one faster, not actually sure at what point you always have to make a roll).
There is nothing in the way, he is in the middle and there is no obstacle on a straight path toward his target.
If some of the ship parts were moving like in an asteroid feld, yeah, this would require an action.
But the Situation he is right now does not require a whole action, just a free one.
So I see no Problems with RAW when he makes:
Flying (Free Action), Concentrate (Action), Shooting (Action)
This is completely RAW. |
AS i mentioned in the other thread (in the official forums) if the trench run was only a moderate or lower difficulty terrain AND he was going at half speed (cautious) he could do it as a FREE action. At any other speed, he WOULD be rolling for it (though at cruise speed he would be counting it as an action but not needing to make the roll by the RAW).
And i seriously doubt from all the times i have watched it, they were going in at anything LESS than Double speed (high).
| Quote: | | Half speed? Luke specifically said they were going in full throttle. |
So now we need to figure out whether Full throttle meant he was doing a Cruise speed maneuver (regular speed) or High speed maneuver (double).
He could NOT have been going flank, as he would then have not been able to shoot (or dodge those fighters on their butts)..
| Quote: |
Now assuming we stick with 2R&E (the problem doesn't exist in 1E, 2E, or Star Warriors), we might say that Luke dropped down from Full Throttle during the actual attack part, or at least after Vader got taken care of. It's cheesy, but he could have dropped speed right before the attack.
But I doubt he was able to drop down to half speed in order to make the movement a free action.
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He would have needed '4 move actions' to have done that (shift down to cautious speed) as you can only shift up or down one speed cat for vehicles/ships (unlike people moving can be done in 2 speed cat increments). |
Don't think I've ever heard of "flank" speed before; is that the same as All-Out?
And why couldn't he have slowed down to High Speed the round before?
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 2460
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: |
Don't think I've ever heard of "flank" speed before; is that the same as All-Out? |
It's a naval term for top speed. Ships use it to try and flank and opponent. Pretty much the same as "All-Out"
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And why couldn't he have slowed down to High Speed the round before? |
Because in the film there is never an indication that he is slowing down. There is even the wonderful ranging computer display that show how fast the X-Wing is moving.
And it gets even more complicated once you factor in the TIEs. If the X-Wings were going all out, then the TIEs wouldn't be able to keep up unless they also were moving at all out. So the TIes wouldn't be able to shoot! Or, if they throttled down when in laser range, could only shoot every 5 rounds.
That's also one of the reasons why I really dislike 2R&R's all out rule. If you got a fast enough ship, going all out can make you immune to TIE Fighters.. Either they keep up with you, or they can shoot you, but not both. I've been houseruling movement as upping the difficulty instead. SO All Out is worth +2 difficulty levels. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
Posts: 16272
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 9:05 am Post subject: |
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That seems fair.
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garhkal
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Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: Reynoldsburg, Columbus, Ohio.
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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Lets take 2 iconic fighters.. The tie interceptor (space range of 25 for its weapons and speed of 11) and the Xwing (space range also 25 for its weapons and a speed of 8)
If they are both at medium range (12) away and the Xwing cranks up to all out from double speed (moving 16, going up to 32), the Interceptor will stay within range of shooting for ONE round, before having to also shift up to all out, as the range increment increases to 28 su which would be out of range, unless the interceptor goes first.
If it goes second, then its out of range by the time its shot comes up. How ever if it shifted to all out as well, it moves 44 vice the 32 of the xwing (closing down to a SU of 0), then it can shift down one speed cat, and can get 2 rounds of shots off ( as the xwing will shift from 0 to 12 then to 24) in the next 2 rounds.
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DougRed4
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Location: Seattle, WA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| atgxtg wrote: | | DougRed4 wrote: |
Don't think I've ever heard of "flank" speed before; is that the same as All-Out? |
It's a naval term for top speed. Ships use it to try and flank and opponent. Pretty much the same as "All-Out"
| Quote: |
And why couldn't he have slowed down to High Speed the round before? |
Because in the film there is never an indication that he is slowing down. There is even the wonderful ranging computer display that show how fast the X-Wing is moving.
And it gets even more complicated once you factor in the TIEs. If the X-Wings were going all out, then the TIEs wouldn't be able to keep up unless they also were moving at all out. So the TIes wouldn't be able to shoot! Or, if they throttled down when in laser range, could only shoot every 5 rounds.
That's also one of the reasons why I really dislike 2R&R's all out rule. If you got a fast enough ship, going all out can make you immune to TIE Fighters.. Either they keep up with you, or they can shoot you, but not both. I've been houseruling movement as upping the difficulty instead. SO All Out is worth +2 difficulty levels. |
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I work around a lot of ex-military, but had never heard this (that I remember), even from a movie.
So when you say +2 difficulty levels, you allow them to shoot too, but the movement skill test is made at two levels beyond what it normally would be?
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| DougRed4 wrote: |
Ah, thanks for the clarification. I work around a lot of ex-military, but had never heard this (that I remember), even from a movie. |
I used to watch Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea! If you look at some old movies and TV shows you will often see the "Engine Order Telegraph" which looks kinda like a and old double-sided clock, but with a set of levers where the hands would be. Written on the face of the Order Telegraph would be writing such as Full, Standard, 2/3, 1/3, and Flank on it, both for forward and reverse speed.
Usually you will see the ship's captain give an order like "Ahead 2/3rd speed", someone else will say "Aye, Aye, sir., Ahead 2/3 speed." and the order will get passed on until someone moves the levers on the EOT, accompanied by a mechanical bell sound.
| DougRed4 wrote: |
So when you say +2 difficulty levels, you allow them to shoot too, but the movement skill test is made at two levels beyond what it normally would be? |
Yeah., So if a pilot was making an Easy turn at All-Out Speed, it would be raised to difficult. Going at half speed reduces the difficulty. I was thinking applying the same logic to weapons fire. That way the ships can still shoot (like in 2E) but without having to take 4 MAPS (also like in 2E).
I've play-tested the movement with this and with some aerobatic maneuvers (loops, rolls, slips, etc)., and it seems to work fine. My players caught on quickly, and even did stuff like brake before going into a hard maneuver to reduce the difficulty.
I've been considering allowing for multiple throttle changes using the same rule. Basically each change in speed past the first raises the difficulties a level.
I've even been considering that it really should be the changes in speed and direction that should raise the difficulty, not the actual speed. So if someone is going straight and level in open space, it really shouldn't be hard to keep control of the craft. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Always interesting how topics tend to take on a life of their own. Who knows where they will end up...
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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atgxtg
Rear Admiral
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| crmcneill wrote: | | Always interesting how topics tend to take on a life of their own. Who knows where they will end up... |
Sorry  ,
My bad. I mentioned how there are q few problems with the trench run in the RAW (on topic), and got sidetracked going into the details how, and my own houserule. |
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CRMcNeill
Director of Engineering
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Posts: 16272
Location: Redding System, California Sector, on the I-5 Hyperspace Route.
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| Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:16 am Post subject: |
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It's all good. It takes teamwork to go off course, and it's not like I didn't learn some new ideas.
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"No set of rules can cover every situation. It's expected that you will make up new rules to suit the needs of your game." - The Star Wars Roleplaying Game, 2R&E, pg. 69, WEG, 1996.
The CRMcNeill Stat/Rule Index
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