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A Force attribute?
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atgxtg
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
It's not a bad idea for all force users, actually. Granted, WEG says you can pick a new power every time you move up 1D (with the glut of available powers out there now, I've started using every pip), but how did you learn how to use the power if you can't roll high enough to use it on a regular basis (i.e. practice)?"


Concentration!

But, yeah, that's my thinking. It would be nice though if there was a stage between "unlearned" and learned. some sort of familairty stage where you use half your dice or some such.

crmcneill wrote:

As for the players, by "caution", I also mean including a disclaimer to the effect of, "you aren't going to be able to do what you are wanting to do with this character right away, so consider yourself warned; I will have no sympathy down the road if you start complaining about it."


Like I said, what galaxy do you get your players from. I've got a couple of guys areound here who bear grudges over just that statement.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

atgxtg wrote:
It would be nice though if there was a stage between "unlearned" and learned. some sort of familairty stage where you use half your dice or some such.

My original line of thinking was that any power learned under the attribute (as opposed to the Force skills) would be considered powers for which the character has a natural aptitude, so that once the character learns the actual Force skills, the difficulty of using powers learned under the attribute would be reduced by one level. In that sense, a player who was willing to invest in the future might take a more advanced power under the attribute (even though it would be very difficult for them to use at first) with the goal being the eventual payoff of reduced difficulty later on.

I think I would go with characters being able to pick any Force power they wish under the attribute, but require powers learned under the skills to meet a minimum #D prerequisite of some kind...

Quote:
Like I said, what galaxy do you get your players from. I've got a couple of guys areound here who bear grudges over just that statement.

I'm sure those kinds of guys exist everywhere, but anyone who is that much of a moron to ignore a blatant red flag from the GM deserves what they get. I've reached the point where I don't allow players to run FS characters until I've gamed with them long enough to get a feel for their maturity level.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, here's my summary for a Force Attribute house rule, using the RAW except as noted below.

Force Sensitive?: Yes/No is replaced with a seventh attribute called Force (Frc). During character creation, Force is treated like any other attribute, in that it is drawn from the initial 18D of attribute dice, with Control, Sense and Alter as normal skills under that attribute. Characters may use their starting skill dice to improve starting Force skills as normal.

To convert existing WEG templates, add up the initial skill dice placed in Force skills, with the total becoming the template's Force attribute. Existing templates without Force skill dice can not choose to be Force Sensitive unless they sacrifice a total of 1D from the other six attributes. Modify existing templates from 2E & 2R&E as follows:
    Alien Student of the Force
    Force 3D
    Control
    Sense
    Alter


    Failed Jedi
    Force 2D
    Control
    Sense


    Minor Jedi
    Force 1D
    Control

    Quixotic Jedi
    Force 1D
    Sense

    Revwien Tyia Adept
    Force 3D
    Control
    Sense
    Alter


    Young Jedi
    Force 3D
    Control
    Sense
    Alter
All existing WEG Race stats now include Force 0D/3D as an Attribute Min/Max for the purposes of character creation, with any higher or lower attribute min/max being species specific, and at GM discretion. Some examples include:
    -Ssi-Ruuk are Force Blind, so will automatically have a Force of 0D

    -Duinuogwuins (Star Dragons) have a 1 in 3 chance of being Force users, so a Force Min/Max of 1D/4D could be appropriate. However, Star Dragons are not recommended as player characters, so it may never be an issue.

    -Hutts have a natural resistance to the Force, but are not believed to be capable of Force Sensitivity, so they could be treated as having an automatic Force 0D.
Conversion of existing characters uses the guidelines above for converting starting Force skills into an attribute, with any subsequent modifiers due to post-creation skill advancement decided by mutual agreement between GM and player.

Characters may select 1 Force power per Attribute Die from the Sense Powers (or Control, at the GM's discretion), and may roll their Attribute dice to use those powers. These powers are considered to be areas of natural aptitude for the character, and once the character learns the requisite Force skills (Control, Sense and Alter), the Attribute powers may be used under the skills at reduced difficulty (one level lower). Ideally, characters who have attribute-based powers without Force skills should roleplay the use of a power as though it is simply a lucky guess or "just a feeling".

All characters with a Force of 0D are considered to be non-Force Sensitive. They can not learn Force skills or gain Force powers, and are limited to a maximum of 5 Force Points, as per the RAW. A non-FS character who wishes to become Force Sensitive must spend 20CP to raise his Force from 0D to 1D, after which the Attribute is improved as normal.

Droids automatically have a Force of 0D, and can not become Force Sensitive. Any instances of droids exhibiting Force powers are considered to be Shards implanted in droid bodies (and the Shards will still have a Force of 0D/3D). Exceptional droids (i.e. PC or major NPC droids) may still use Character Points and Force Points.

All Force skills are treated like regular skills, in that they are learned and improved as normal, using the Force Attribute as a base, with Sense commonly being the first skill taught or learned.


That's my version. Did I miss anything?
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
DougRed4 wrote:
Quote:
We have used no house rules for our Miraluka character. His character sheet reads with all of the stuff from the D6 Holocron (which spells out the WEG sources their info in drawn from). I'm not sure where he got the idea of seeing through walls, but he showed me something (in print) at the table that looked like an official source. I'll have to try to find out what that was.

It's not a bad idea, really, as the Force would not be blocked by walls or other physical obstructions. It's just that the Miraluka description in the TOTJ book is really light on details. I'd love to see someone flesh it out a bit.


My player finally got back to me on this issue (he was at a conference and vacation in Hawaii). He pointed out that back when he created the character, he was told he could go to Wookieepedia to learn more about them. That site suggests that Miraluka see by means of Force Sight, and both of those pages have a lot of sources that they draw their information from. So it seems fairly consistent, from EU sources anyway, that Miraluka see in this way.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be interested to see your rules write-up for Force Sight, then...
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't really have anything written out, but the player has printed out what Wookieepedia says, which is:

Force sight, or Force seeing, was a basic Force ability, perhaps related to Force sense. It enhanced the bearer's visual and spatial perception even in the dark or behind walls. 'Seeing' with the Force was a useful skill for as Obi-Wan Kenobi said, "Your eyes can deceive you. Don't trust them". Trained users could have their sight amplified and were able to counter Force persuasion and Force blinding powers.

The Miraluka relied on this power constantly to compensate for their physical blindness. They could not perceive colors but could distinguish organics (even dead) and their alignment from the surrounding environment by their characteristic aura. Most objects, including doors and walls, appeared translucent, allowing to see through them. The Miraluka were the most skilled experts of the technique. Thanks to it, their reflexes were strengthened enormously.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. I'd like to see some ballpark figures on range limitations or something.
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DougRed4
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'm usually like you, preferring some specificity on things like this, for the sake of consistency as well as to prevent abuse.

I've already explained to the player that I don't see it as Superman's x-ray vision (after a pickpocket stole his tech gadget and he wanted to be able to see through everyone in a crowd's clothing).
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I'd like to see it more as a graduated system, with the degree of success on the roll determining what a person can "see". A basic success would reveal blurry, monochrome shapes at relatively close range, while higher rolls would reveal more and more detail.

I'd also like to see a more general power that allows the Force to supplant any of a character's blocked senses, especially hearing.
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Tupteq
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Side note.
Can miraluka see what is on computer screen? IMO - no, at least not on standard computer screens. Maybe there's a note about this somewhere?
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tupteq wrote:
Side note.
Can miraluka see what is on computer screen? IMO - no, at least not on standard computer screens. Maybe there's a note about this somewhere?

Honestly, the idea of the Force not being able to perceive color or words on a screen seems a little arbitrary to me. I think I would tie the ability to perceive those things in with how well the character rolled his Sense.
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Tupteq
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crmcneill wrote:
Tupteq wrote:
Side note.
Can miraluka see what is on computer screen? IMO - no, at least not on standard computer screens. Maybe there's a note about this somewhere?

Honestly, the idea of the Force not being able to perceive color or words on a screen seems a little arbitrary to me. I think I would tie the ability to perceive those things in with how well the character rolled his Sense.


I was refering to DougRed4's note from wookieepedia about miraluka:

DougRed4 wrote:

[...]
They could not perceive colors but could distinguish organics (even dead) and their alignment from the surrounding environment by their characteristic aura.
[...]


Depending on technology behind computer screens in SWU it may amit light (CRT, LCD) or just be of specific color (e-ink). First one could be easier to see by miraluka, but second one should be tough. Especially that most of objects is translucent in force-sight "spectrum".

I kind of like this limitation, miraluka could have (at least) problems with reading from datapads and computer displays effecting in negative modifiers in certain skills.
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Leon The Lion
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, what about writing on paper? If they can't see any kind of color at all, as opposed to simply seeing in black-and-white, wouldn't that also mean they're unable to read that too? Unless the Force Sight has enough resolution to distinguish the indentations left in the paper by the pen? If not, they could only reliably read from stone or clay tablets (or some high-tech version of such).

Would a race that relied on those and an oral tradition for passing down and preserving information even be able to develop or maintain a technical civilization capable of space-flight?

And even if so, it seems to me a Miraluka out in the wider galaxy would face severe handicaps in even day-to-day life. If they can't see color, they not only can't read, tjhey can't see any kind of signs, like road signs, warning signs, signs denoting public utility buildings or advertisements! They can't read a public transportation or space-port time-table, can't read a map, don't know what a store is selling unless they're close enough to look in the window.

And what about Miraluka technicians? If they can't see color, that's going to be a problem anywhere that wires, ports or other components are color-coded.

Not being able to read computer screens with the reason defined as not seeing color sounds like an interesting limitation, but it seems a real can of worms if examined logically.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tupteq wrote:
I was refering to DougRed4's note from wookieepedia about miraluka

I get that; my problem was not with what you wrote, but the underlying principle behind it.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2014 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leon The Lion wrote:
Not being able to read computer screens with the reason defined as not seeing color sounds like an interesting limitation, but it seems a real can of worms if examined logically.

Exactly my point. It makes a good limitation on the surface, but I then find myself thinking, "So, the Force surrounds us, penetrates us and binds the galaxy together, and provides adepts with incredible awareness of the universe around them...but it can't tell you what color something is?"
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