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Lightsaber Pulse
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Dredwulf60
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were going to adopt this, I would make some sort of modification that addressed the local conditions at the time the power was used.

Specifically in a well-lighted or daylight condition versus a dark or night condition. Because bright flashes can be seen further and have a greater effect when used at night.

For example:

Quote:

"A 1-megaton explosion can cause flash blindness at distances as great as 13 miles on a clear day, or 53 miles on a clear night. If the intensity is great enough, a permanent retinal burn will result."


Also, could a Jedi cause the same flash effect with another energy source?

If the power derives from The Force and not the lightsaber, could the Jedi cause a spotlight to suddenly surge to a bright intensity?

What about a blaster bolt?

Is there a similar force power that could cause a lightsaber to suddenly flare with heat and cause burns to everyone nearby?
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Error
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dustflier wrote:
I don't want us to get too much further off-track (or beat a dead tauntaun), but I wanted to point something out about the following:

Error wrote:
There is no right, you're correct—only balanced versus nonbalanced within the confines of the existing game. But therein lies my point. Do any of us know, without having tested it, if 50m is too far a range for this power? No, you can't just look at it and know that, like garhkal does. It must be tested.


Error, you have a very analytical approach to balancing, and that's probably great for coming up with homebrew powers and such. But saying that something can be judged only on balance/testing seems illogical to me. See, I care less about something being overpowered mechanically, and more about it being both a simple and realistic representation of the Star Wars galaxy. To me, balanced vs. nonbalanced is a nonissue. Star Wars isn't balanced. Everyone may have a role to play (Han isn't waving a lightsaber, while Obi-Wan isn't piloting the freighter), but everyone doesn't have to be equally good at all things.

Instead, my focus lies on continuity and consistency. In those terms, I can perceive something to be "wrong" for Star Wars (such as a gasoline-driven, wheeled land vehicle; or extragalactic space invaders that exist outside the Force). That doesn't mean that others have to agree with me, but it's just as viable a matter of discussion as anything else.

In that vein, regarding matters of the narrative vs. mechanical, I'm a narrativist. For this reason, I typically limit my responses on pure mechanics. The campaign I run has so many homebrewed rules that I don't trust myself any longer to comment on the mechanics of the system as written. But I absolutely can discuss how things in the Star Wars galaxy work, and how consistent a power is in terms of lore and what we know of canon.

So truly we are all here for different reasons (which was the point of my earlier post). Please don't get frustrated when people focus on things you're not interested in, it's just an expression of all of us relating to the same hobby differently.

Error wrote:
Also, and I'll reiterate again this because it keeps seeming to fall on deaf ears, nothing I post here is final even in my own games until IT. IS. TESTED. I have to admit it does make me pissed off when people forget that. They keep assuming it's some kind of final copy. Instead of "Hey, that range looks a bit overpowered...try X and test it out with your playgroup," I instead basically get "This item is wrong, every aspect of is wrong, it's not balanced, it's unfair, how does it work, why won't you explain why it works, this other unrelated item does it better and you should use it instead," ad nauseam.


I genuinely don't understand this. You're saying that no numbers are final, yet are not accepting of others' attempts to dial in the number to something appropriate. No, we didn't playtest it. Apparently, you didn't either. Let us make suggestions and fiddle with the numbers - the more suggestions we accumulate, the closer we'll get to the right numbers without even having to playtest. That's as a result of our collective experience as gamers and testament to the power of crowdsourcing.

Also, for the record, I still like this power. I just also think that the "how" could be discussed without it detracting from the part of the conversation that you do want to have.

I really only care that the powers are balanced in my own games. As a former "game designer" myself, it's really hard to tell beforehand how something is going to act within testing it. So in that regard I should have more open ears to other opinions.

You call it crowdsourcing, I call it "accessing the Hive Mind".

Also, yes, that's exactly it for the paragraph you don't understand. Since I can only playtest one thing at a time, and it takes FOREVER, there is a limit on the number of things that can be playtested period. So I have to pick a number in my mind that seems best and try that one first. My pick was 50m and some folks lost their minds ;D

I too am a narrative over mechanics type of GM. And that is why my core playgroup has been with me for years, and years, and years. If something is broken I fix it, I focus on both balance and coolness, and it's a good mix.

I think your statement about Star Wars not being balanced is a particularly good argument against most anyone who wants to attack an item (ship, gun, etc.) posted here. You're absolutely right, or else there'd be no need for a REUP version, right? With a million charts?

You and I agree on a lot more than meets the eye, I think Smile


garhkal wrote:
Don't you think the enemy if they see the Jedi closing his eyes and turning his head would have the sense to do the same? Thus avoiding the pulse themselves?

That actually depends on the era (eras with less Jedi mean less Galactic knowledge about them in general) and the individuals facing the Jedi. In my mind, the user could blink and be fine. In fact, I would even go so far to say I'm comfortable with the Jedi not blinking at all and still not being affected by a Lightsaber Pulse.


Raven Redstar wrote:
Sorry for double post.

In my opinion, Droids and other Mechanical persons would be immune, simply because their photorecptors should be able to filter out the blinding light.

Quite simply, a droid can stare at the sun and, in theory, not go blind. Whereas someone with organic eyes would most likely burn out their retinas.

Also, to throw a wet blanket on the power's uses in the Rebellion era. Storm troopers have special polarized lenses to prevent flash blinding. The power would be useless against any and all of the Stormtrooper divisions so long as they had their helmets on.

Understood about the Stormtroopers. And I agree 100% that mechanical beings or those without "eyes" in the strictest sense would be unaffected.


Dredwulf60 wrote:
If I were going to adopt this, I would make some sort of modification that addressed the local conditions at the time the power was used.

Specifically in a well-lighted or daylight condition versus a dark or night condition. Because bright flashes can be seen further and have a greater effect when used at night.

For example:

Quote:

"A 1-megaton explosion can cause flash blindness at distances as great as 13 miles on a clear day, or 53 miles on a clear night. If the intensity is great enough, a permanent retinal burn will result."


Also, could a Jedi cause the same flash effect with another energy source?

If the power derives from The Force and not the lightsaber, could the Jedi cause a spotlight to suddenly surge to a bright intensity?

What about a blaster bolt?

Is there a similar force power that could cause a lightsaber to suddenly flare with heat and cause burns to everyone nearby?

No to causing other energy sources to flash (unless someone wants to come up with a power called "Object Flash" lol), no to spotlights, no to burns. I want this elegant and simple. It's like a flashbulb going off, except decently more powerful, enough for you to see stars for 30-40 seconds.

Though many of your suggestions are actually really interesting, I don't see myself using all of them right off the rip. Gotta do some testing first, then I can fiddle with capabilities.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Error wrote:
Don't you guys think the Jedi using this power would have enough common sense to both close his/her eyes and turn his/her head when the pulse goes off?


Sure, which is why he'd get a +2D to his Control or Perception roll to avoid the flash... he knows its coming. His allies might be clued in that it's coming by a free action ("PULSE!"). But closing your eyes doesn't mean that you're going to avoid getting the flash, ESPECIALLY when you're setting it off within arm's reach, and it's bright enough to reach people on the other side of a large room.
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Methedor
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a 2 cents thing I am reminded of something from GURPS.

"If you kill all the orcs with a fire wand, then the next group fighting you won't know about it."

While I do agree that a foe would think it odd that someone looks away or closes their eyes (which could be from combat-dust) I without cause I wouldn't presume the foe would know to look away as well. I would think a Tactics roll or some such by the NPC would be needed unless Flash attacks were used in the battle or he\she was familiar with such combat or provided with intel on the group.

But as we have already stated each of us has different ways of looking at things and comparing them.

To stick with the idea of glow enhanced things with the Force, considering Jason in Legacy I'd think it would be an application of the Force. Though I would tweak the power if I were to use it in my game. For instance I think the Force *skill* vs Attribute is a bit one-sided once when CP levels get high enough.
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dredwulf60 wrote:

Also, could a Jedi cause the same flash effect with another energy source?

If the power derives from The Force and not the lightsaber, could the Jedi cause a spotlight to suddenly surge to a bright intensity?

What about a blaster bolt?

Is there a similar force power that could cause a lightsaber to suddenly flare with heat and cause burns to everyone nearby?


Or if he's using the force, what about just creating a ball of light in the air that pulses out.
Also since this power COULD potentially cause permanent damage, shouldn't there be possibly a DSP warning?

Quote:
That actually depends on the era (eras with less Jedi mean less Galactic knowledge about them in general) and the individuals facing the Jedi. In my mind, the user could blink and be fine. In fact, I would even go so far to say I'm comfortable with the Jedi not blinking at all and still not being affected by a Lightsaber Pulse.


I disagre. I feel he shouldn't be immune to his own pulse/power..
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Error
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
Error wrote:
Don't you guys think the Jedi using this power would have enough common sense to both close his/her eyes and turn his/her head when the pulse goes off?


Sure, which is why he'd get a +2D to his Control or Perception roll to avoid the flash... he knows its coming. His allies might be clued in that it's coming by a free action ("PULSE!"). But closing your eyes doesn't mean that you're going to avoid getting the flash, ESPECIALLY when you're setting it off within arm's reach, and it's bright enough to reach people on the other side of a large room.

MrNexx wrote:
Error wrote:
Don't you guys think the Jedi using this power would have enough common sense to both close his/her eyes and turn his/her head when the pulse goes off?


Sure, which is why he'd get a +2D to his Control or Perception roll to avoid the flash... he knows its coming. His allies might be clued in that it's coming by a free action ("PULSE!"). But closing your eyes doesn't mean that you're going to avoid getting the flash, ESPECIALLY when you're setting it off within arm's reach, and it's bright enough to reach people on the other side of a large room.

That's true.

But have you ever noticed you can turn your face directly into the sun in a cloudless sky with your eyes closed, and it doesn't blind you? (One among you must like to tan naturally...)

You see the light through your eyelids sure, but it doesn't harm you. However, even looking at it without the eyelids for even half a second can have you seeing stars and will completely water your eyes. At least my eyes behave that way, or did when I was a kid. I don't make a habit of slowly eating away at my corneas by glancing at the sun once in a while...

I think human eyelids are sufficient protection from this power, and if I feel that way I should probably add that to the description, though I really want to subtract words from it, not add them. It also means there's a chance the person/persons you're trying to blind may be in the middle of a blink when the pulse goes off. For purposes of this power, I'm just going to assume that every PC-able race in my SWU does something which is either a true blink or an analog of one.

I'm considering making the Jedi completely immune to the pulse as long as he is the one who emits it. I really don't mind if people disagree with me on that since it fits the cinematic feel for me and is also within the spirit of the Light Side of the Force.

Double entendre intended ;D

I am also considering making this into a power which will not be available to NPC's who have turned to the Dark Side. There is precedent for this in the RAW in the power Emptiness. What do you guys think of that?
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garhkal
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So its damaging, can't harm the user and is only available to light sided characters. Strange.
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Error
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

garhkal wrote:
So its damaging, can't harm the user and is only available to light sided characters. Strange.

No damage. Just temporary blindness. I am thinking of the duration being something along these lines:

Roll 1D

Result and effect:

1-2 (character is blinded for 1 round)
3-4 (2 rounds)
5 (3 rounds)
6 (4 rounds)

The only situation where I can imagine this ability being downright overpowered is during 1-on-1 combat with someone else who also has a lightsaber and who cannot sense it coming. You will be under MAP's (assuming you're using LSC and keeping it up, as well as attacking and blocking each round, maybe multiple times) but if you can get the pulse off anyway and they fail their resist—or you roll a 5 or a 6 on the duration die—they're dead.

I could nerf the power a little bit by allowing anyone engaged with the user in 1-on-1 combat a PER (non-Force users) or Sense (Force users) roll in order to give them a chance to know it's coming and react appropriately. I'm not sure at this point what they'd be rolling against, though. I will have to think about that and I hope others have thoughts on it also.

In larger battle situations, where the clamor (sound) is high and there are a lot of people on the field, you run the risk of blinding your own team unless you can use Projective Telepathy or a similar ability to tell them all to close their eyes one second later (or whatever you have worked out with your friends). Problem is, if one of those friends closes his or her eyes for the pulse and it doesn't blind that character's direct opponent, because his or her back is turned or otherwise, the eye-closing could turn out to be deadly. But that's not the only reason it's a bad idea to use on a battlefield with a large mix of both friendlies and mobs.
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