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Fiddling with Lightsaber Combat
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject: Fiddling with Lightsaber Combat Reply with quote

So, just some thoughts on how to "fix" lightsaber combat, and what that might mean.

I think a simple method of "fixing" lightsaber combat is to make the various lightsaber forms into Advanced skills, and eliminate Lightsaber Combat, the power, replacing it with a more general "Combat Sense" power... keeping Combat Sense up would let you split your Sense dice among different combat skills each round... so you might pour all of your Sense dice into Dodge while at a distance, but split them between Melee Combat and Melee Parry when close, since you've just got a Vibro-blade. This would continue to give Lightsaber a bit of prominence in Jedi combat... not only is it a very effective weapon, but not needing to split the Sense dice would mean that you're much better positioned in a fight. The round-by-round splitting also lets Jedi be taken by surprise... if my Melee Combat/Melee Parry guy is jumped by people with grenades, he's got to rely on his natural Dodge skills, since he hasn't put anything into that. It also has the side effect of lower Jedi damage, since Control is no longer adding directly to their Lightsaber damage, but I think I can live with that.

The Advanced Skills would add their value to certain attacks and actions. For example, Shii-Cho, Form I, would add to attacks against weapons and offset multiple action penalties for attacking several people at once. Form III/Soresu would aid in defending against blaster attacks. A Jedi might become a master of a single form, but find themselves at a disadvantage when facing an situation not accounted by their form... a Shii-Cho master would be great against Stormtroopers, but at a real disadvantage against a Rancor, who has no weapon to strike nor blaster to deflect. He would still be able to use Combat Sense, of course, and might find it useful to put a lot of his dice in Dodge, since you can't really parry a hand the size of a truck, even with a lightsaber.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of familiar ideas here...

Wink
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably picked up from other conversation; I tend to agree with you that LSC is problematic, partially because it's only based on what we see in the OT... which is kind of a nadir of lightsaber combat techniques, since we have a half-trained padawan, an elderly man, and a half-broken cyborg.
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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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CRMcNeill
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too tempting.
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: Fiddling with Lightsaber Combat Reply with quote

MrNexx wrote:
So, just some thoughts on how to "fix" lightsaber combat, and what that might mean.

I think a simple method of "fixing" lightsaber combat is to make the various lightsaber forms into Advanced skills, and eliminate Lightsaber Combat, the power, replacing it with a more general "Combat Sense" power... keeping Combat Sense up would let you split your Sense dice among different combat skills each round... so you might pour all of your Sense dice into Dodge while at a distance, but split them between Melee Combat and Melee Parry when close, since you've just got a Vibro-blade. This would continue to give Lightsaber a bit of prominence in Jedi combat... not only is it a very effective weapon, but not needing to split the Sense dice would mean that you're much better positioned in a fight. The round-by-round splitting also lets Jedi be taken by surprise... if my Melee Combat/Melee Parry guy is jumped by people with grenades, he's got to rely on his natural Dodge skills, since he hasn't put anything into that. It also has the side effect of lower Jedi damage, since Control is no longer adding directly to their Lightsaber damage, but I think I can live with that.

The Advanced Skills would add their value to certain attacks and actions. For example, Shii-Cho, Form I, would add to attacks against weapons and offset multiple action penalties for attacking several people at once. Form III/Soresu would aid in defending against blaster attacks. A Jedi might become a master of a single form, but find themselves at a disadvantage when facing an situation not accounted by their form... a Shii-Cho master would be great against Stormtroopers, but at a real disadvantage against a Rancor, who has no weapon to strike nor blaster to deflect. He would still be able to use Combat Sense, of course, and might find it useful to put a lot of his dice in Dodge, since you can't really parry a hand the size of a truck, even with a lightsaber.


Are you sure you want the forms to be advanced skills? It seems that, if you have "disadvantages" based on your chosen form, you'd be better off just running the standard skill.

If they are going to be advanced, have you considered having the skills provide specific advantages in situations instead?

Sorry if this comes across as nit-picky. It's possible you are thinking in terms of the difference between a +2 bonus or a -2 to the difficulty, in which case, go ahead and disregard.
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MrNexx
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2017 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Fiddling with Lightsaber Combat Reply with quote

Naaman wrote:
MrNexx wrote:
So, just some thoughts on how to "fix" lightsaber combat, and what that might mean.

I think a simple method of "fixing" lightsaber combat is to make the various lightsaber forms into Advanced skills, and eliminate Lightsaber Combat, the power, replacing it with a more general "Combat Sense" power... keeping Combat Sense up would let you split your Sense dice among different combat skills each round... so you might pour all of your Sense dice into Dodge while at a distance, but split them between Melee Combat and Melee Parry when close, since you've just got a Vibro-blade. This would continue to give Lightsaber a bit of prominence in Jedi combat... not only is it a very effective weapon, but not needing to split the Sense dice would mean that you're much better positioned in a fight. The round-by-round splitting also lets Jedi be taken by surprise... if my Melee Combat/Melee Parry guy is jumped by people with grenades, he's got to rely on his natural Dodge skills, since he hasn't put anything into that. It also has the side effect of lower Jedi damage, since Control is no longer adding directly to their Lightsaber damage, but I think I can live with that.

The Advanced Skills would add their value to certain attacks and actions. For example, Shii-Cho, Form I, would add to attacks against weapons and offset multiple action penalties for attacking several people at once. Form III/Soresu would aid in defending against blaster attacks. A Jedi might become a master of a single form, but find themselves at a disadvantage when facing an situation not accounted by their form... a Shii-Cho master would be great against Stormtroopers, but at a real disadvantage against a Rancor, who has no weapon to strike nor blaster to deflect. He would still be able to use Combat Sense, of course, and might find it useful to put a lot of his dice in Dodge, since you can't really parry a hand the size of a truck, even with a lightsaber.


Are you sure you want the forms to be advanced skills? It seems that, if you have "disadvantages" based on your chosen form, you'd be better off just running the standard skill.

If they are going to be advanced, have you considered having the skills provide specific advantages in situations instead?

Sorry if this comes across as nit-picky. It's possible you are thinking in terms of the difference between a +2 bonus or a -2 to the difficulty, in which case, go ahead and disregard.


I think advanced skills work, but it's not that a Shii-Cho user would get a penalty against the Rancor (to use the example above), it's that all the effort he put into Shii-Cho would be of no use.

Let's say Anna the Jedi has Lightsaber 5D and Shii-Cho 3D. If she's fighting the Stormtroopers, she's rolling 8D to cut blasters in two and take swings at several different stormtroopers in a round. If she faces a Rancor, she's only rolling 5D... not because she has a penalty, but because her Shii-Cho form is useless in that situation. If she also had skill in Vaapad, which is good against a single opponent, she might fall back on that.
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Volar the Healer
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have sometimes wondered if what we saw in the movies could be recreated in the game by requiring 20 to hit with a lightsaber above the defender's parry. Since only a lightsaber (or a sith sword) can parry a lightsaber, everyone's parry is zero no mater what they roll. But a defender with a lightsaber would be able to add their parry roll to the 20 needed to hit. This would make for long lightsaber battles against another lightsaber, but slice and dice against every other kind of weapon.

This seems like it would replicate what we saw in the movies, but I haven't playtested it, yet. What does the forum think?
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Naaman
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This would depend on how you interpret what the melee parry skill does or could represent. I interpret it as "not getting hit in melee combat by whatever means is the most applicable to the situation." That means parrying, blocking, evading, slipping in or out, side stepping, etc.

The RAW also applies a +5 bonus when the attacker is armed and defender is not... and a +10 bonus to parry when the defender is armed and attacker is not. If youre interested in consistency with RAW, you could treat other weapons as "unarmed" against lightsabers, but I think that might be a little too much, personally.
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An old post on the same subject two years ago, and my thoughts on the matter.

http://www.rancorpit.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5546&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2017 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was reading the 1E rules and I had a thought for a variant way of handling lightsabers and lightsaber combat. My goals:

    1. Lightsaber duels showed play out more like what we see in the movies and TV shows, i.e. duels usually last more than one round and usually include some movement or actions other than a simple cut for massive damage.
    2. The system should not be much more complicated nor should a round take longer than in existing D6 combat.
    3. The system should be reasonably compatible with at least one of the existing rule sets.


Variant Lightsaber rules

Using a Lightsaber
In the 1E rules a character uses the lightsaber skill to attack with a lightsaber and parries with either the melee parry skill or his Sense skill. The character adds (or subtracts at the Jedi’s option) his Control skill to the damage roll. The character can parry blaster bolts or other missile attacks by using the Sense skill. He adds the roll to the attacker’s difficulty number. A user who parries a blaster bolt can reflect it back. This is another reaction skill use and counts as an additional action. He uses his Sense roll to hit and the distance to the target as the difficulty.

House Rule: A character who learns the Lightsaber Combat Force Power can add his Dexterity to his Sense roll for the purposes of parrying attacks. Dexterity does not add to the Sense skill when reflecting blaster bolts. This House Rule supersedes the Lightsaber Combat power from Second Edition.

Lightsaber vs. Lightsaber Duels
When two character clash in lightsaber combat, you may want to consider using this optional combat system to heighten the cinematic experience of the duel. (The system can also streamline other melee and brawling confrontations, if you like.)

This is best employed during a climatic lightsaber battle. It is intended to give the participants more control over their actions, to avoid single round duels, and to heighten the tension and drama.

Instead of combatants rolling an attack and defense each sequence, they simultaneously roll their lightsaber skill dice each round. The higher roll wins that round of the lightsaber duel. The outcome depends on how much higher one opponent rolled above the other’s score. Consult the table below.

Difference Combat Effect*
1-5............Push back: loser must retreat
6-10..........Knock off balance: -1D to rolls next round
11-15........Gain Advantage of a cumulative +1D
16+...........Wound: disarm or roll damage

Combat Effects. The Combat Results table above indicates various effects based on how much higher one opponent rolls over another.

Push back: The winner’s blows are so well-placed and powerful the loser must retreat, often in a direction he’d rather not be heading. The winner determines the direction based on the surroundings, combatants’ placement, and gamemaster input. The loser might be steered toward another obstacle: such as a wall, chasm, trap, or even another opponent.
Knock off balance: The winner knocks the loser off balance, either through heavy blows, fancy maneuvering, or forcing the loser onto unsteady ground. This inflicts a −1D penalty against all actions for the next round only.
Gain Advantage: The winner gains a cumulative +1D bonus that they can use on their next lightsaber attack or they can save the bonus so as to accumulate a higher bonus in the future by combining multiple instances of this result. Choosing Gain Advantage will tend to extend the duel for more rounds. This is intentional.
Victory: The winner is victorious: he disarms his opponent, hits for damage, or escapes if he desires.

* The table is inspired by the D6 System Dueling Blades Combat Variant by Peter Schweighofer.

What happened to the Lightsaber Combat force power?
    I've nearly eliminated it. I think it is problematic at both low levels (it adds nothing or actually penalizes the user) and high levels (where it causes the dice for attack and parry to reach double digits even before using a Force Point) and it requires calculating MAPs. Now its only effect is to allow the Force User to add their Dexterity to their Sense skill when parrying.

Why add Sense + Dexterity for lightsaber parrying?
    I don't want to unduly incentivize characters to have high Force skills e.g. 7D+. On the other hand, 2E characters with Lightsaber Combat have much better parries than the simple Sense roll that 1E uses for parrying. I have chosen a compromise between the outcomes of the two systems.
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